Maybe the slogan "Disagreements Without Borders" would soften the image a bit.

No, really...I'm serious. Let's put out that modern, hip, politically correct vibe and we'll attract them in hordes. Of course, I won't be responsible for the shock to their system if, instead of a conversation over tea and biscuits, they run smack dab into a "battle royale" and actual disagreements instead of pretend ones.

I will personally start a thread titled "Ten Reasons Why I Love Steve Jobs" if this will help. I'm willing to do my part no matter how much it hurts.

How's about "Meaningless Bullshit Without Understanding"?

This seems to capture the essence of nearly any discussion forum.

See? The discussion is already becoming energetic on its own.

Tea and biscuits? Pass the grog and hardtac!

Arrr, matety a hard crew is what we be and no bilge rats will be crossing swords with the likes of us. Aye, it is their own deaths they'll be finding here.

Or else, maybe, we are really just some guys sitting on our asses in front of computer screens pretty much like the other guys sitting on their asses in front of computer screens. Makes us too much alike? Okay, have it your way.

Avast ye swabs!

How's about "Meaningless Bullshit Without Understanding"?

The BS part often applies, but not the "meaningless" part. I find lots of meaning in the BS.

But I do agree (I think) with you and Darr about modernizing and updating this place. I would not do so simply for the purposes of putting a new "skin" on something just to mask what it really is and would continue to be. I would do so for the purposes of good communication and truth in advertising; to explain better what this place is all about. This place isn't much about OS X anymore. When we do talk about OS X we usually use the subject as a convenient surrogate in order to whack each other over the head and blow off steam. That's trivializing the operating system and interface as much as Apple did.

What best describes this place is "Free and open discourse". And I might add "without much of a net". We are the antechambers in the government legislatures around the world. This is where the insider dialog takes place, the "Fuck you, Cunningham. I'm not voting for your damn welfare bill unless you agree to fund cow asshole research in my state." Out on the floor proper you get "The gentleman from New Jersey wishes to discuss his bovine research project."

The latter is over-represented and the former is mostly badly represented if it's represented at all. People think they are doing free and open discourse and high thinking if they throw around a few f-bombs. That's not raw dialog that's just thuggish dialog and while either, I suppose, is welcome here, there is a difference.

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Originally posted by mithradites:
Like I said, I looked at your Rhapsody pictures on your website and read a little more about your opinions in OSX. You do have something to offer here, if you choose.

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I appreciate the thought. I do agree that the possibility for me to interact with the thalo community more constructively exists... and this thread is a clear step by step example of how NOT to do that.

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Too often I see people come in here from other online forums with a chip firmly implanted on the shoulder. That is a prescription for disaster if I have ever seen one.

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No it wasn't a chip. Given my experience with Maxximo on Ars I just figured I'm come over and see how a thread like this went. You can see the results of that plan for yourself.

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Anyway, just my opinion. Stay or go. It is your choice.

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We will see how things go. I may pop in from time to time with a comment or two (look for me next week after the keynote sometime). However given my history as a Next/Rhapsody lover (you have no idea how long it took me to find that copy of Rhapsody - though nowadays its pretty easy to find online) I definitely fall more onto the OSX side of the argument. However given my enthusiasm for OSes in general... I actually do have a collection of most of the versions of MacOS (in addition to my Windows collection). Some I've just toyed with and others I've spent some real time trying to use in the real world (7/8/9) and even on my own machines (I've personally owned three macs: 68040 Powerbook, Dual G4/450 and the current G3/600 iBook).

hmmm.

Well thought out Brother Brad.

Maybe it should be the "Battle Fucking Royale".

Besides thalo's posts just aren't as long as they used to be.

I would not do so simply for the purposes of putting a new "skin" on something just to mask what it really is...

Absolutely, Brad, absolutely. Even just saying 'free and open discourse' doesn't convey what that means. This place can become very raucous. What I've noticed is when it does it is generally over important matters and at a higher level than sites that have the mommy police trying to control their 'children.' Mainly, I think that's due to the fact that one is allow to defend one's self here.

Just saying 'free and open discourse' may lead people to believe that what is happening is a sort of undisciplined free-for-all where, yahoo, one can cuss and swear and insult people as much as one wants. While one is free to do that everyone else is free to think that person is a jerk --just like real life.

On the other sites members are treated as children and somehow that leads to them getting really upset over the tinniest, childish matters. Things that would send other sites into tailspins resulting in long lectures and new rules are barely noticed here and cause nothing at all. We have the same sort of turmoil, hurt feelings and all that, but it all seems to happen at a different level.

I'll tell you why it happens that way. It's because here one cannot 'win.' That is to say one cannot have the last word. You can't run to the moderators and demand the other person be silenced giving you the last word. You can't have them intervene in a disagreement and effectively declare you the winner. You can't win. So, discussions here aren't those stupid posting contests where folks just try to 'win' the conversation. If you come to a impasse then that's it. Next subject! Better luck next time.

I've always thought the strength of thalo.net lies in the principles laid down by thalo and not in its specific content. Just like the strength of the original Mac OS was in its design principles and not its specific features. Free and open discourse means the content of the site will, by definition, be created by individual members. The principles are those of the site owner.

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That is to say one cannot have the last word. You can't run to the moderators and demand the other person be silenced giving you the last word.

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I've had the impression for a long time that in many (or most) internet forums, there's a kind of feeling that whoever gets the last word wins. No matter how incoherent the argument or how little remains to be said, merely being the last to post is victory. As if not answering the last post is conceding defeat. So the threads go on and on and on...because nobody wants to let the other guy have the last word.

I think there's less of that here. Maybe because we seem to scew a little older than many other forums. Or maybe because many of us have been chatting for years now, and have formed a community where we're not entirely strangers, as virtual as the community may be.

(Some of the political discussions were a little close to the edge, but obviously no lasting harm was done.)

People think we're crazies over here. And yet this thread is just the latest to show that we can keep things on an even keel without the heavy-handed "moderation" you find elsewhere.

Markle

I've always thought the strength of thalo.net lies in the principles laid down by thalo and not in its specific content.

I understand if people are getting tired of OS X talk. Personally, I’m not tired of it at all. I still love reading thalo.net’s kind of Mac stuff. I very much doubt that any other Mac site comes even close in quality. To me, the Mac content is the primary strength of thalo.net. Where else can I get this kind of insight on the Mac? Not on tv, not in any book I know of. And on no other website that I have seen. As far as I know, the Mac stuff here is unique.

While I love reading the political and other stuff on the Brother‘Hood forum, I can get good insight, facts, opinions on these subjects elsewhere if I want.

As to the principle of free speech and no nannying etc., though this seems to be something special as far as web forums go, in our non-virtual daily life free speech is taken for granted. So I don’t see this principle as the PRIMARY strength of thalo.net: I can speak my mind freely all day long anyway, in the flesh.

Yabor, this site actually rarely has in depth discussions about the Mac anymore. It's all sort of come down to a funny, good-natured taunting between those of differing opinions about OS X.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Mac discussion be abolished. Even if thalo decided to do exactly that the subject would come up again and again anyway. And thalo is not thinking about doing that. All I'm suggesting is that our face to the world be more accurate and not make us all look like raving whackos.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you about what makes thalo.net special. It can't be the sparse OS X talk. Thalo.net value lies in the quality of the membership and the principles that are the bedrock of the site.

No matter how incoherent the argument or how little remains to be said, merely being the last to post is victory. As if not answering the last post is conceding defeat.

You're right. It is an interesting observation. Kinda unique to Internet discussion forums. If one is face-to-face with a person that refuses to acknowledge you; or if one sends a letter that the other person does not answer, most people don't feel they should be collecting a trophy and foolishly dancing to the "Rocky" theme.

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All I'm suggesting is that our face to the world be more accurate and not make us all look like raving whackos.

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I decided long ago that my face to the world would not be accurate AT FIRST GLANCE. In the same way that Apple's face to US is not accurate. I believe that the face we portray is the easiest way to bring about true and lasting awareness. I think we've found out a lot about the way this culture operates, we've been able to expose and exploit some key weaknesses with this medium... laughed at its stumbling blocks, and we've grown to see the problems that face Personal Computers in a very clear way. But it's a process.

Creating a battle royale, being controversial and provokative is just a convenient fun way to get the message across. I'm not out to make friends. I was out to shake things up, and wake up Apple. And lo and behold, as much of a troll and wacko I was, I what? Right. Ended up making friends despite that. And enemies. But GOOD enemies, a lot of really good enemies, and sometimes they are just as valuable. The people who see that and dismiss us as wackos, aren't looking hard enough for real answers. If we gave them the accuracy you think they want, they'd react to it the same way as if we WERE wackos, and so I figure why not make them really deal with their worst-case-trolls? See if they can really take it.

The message of this crusade really could have been summed up in one post. One sentence. It's always been that way. The truth is economical, elegant, symmetrical, simple. Only we bollox it up, I don't know why... maybe we NEED things to be complicated and that's the only way we think they're interesting. Maybe we NEED to get all lit up and emotional about stuff before we really EMBRACE the truth.

My personal message didn't need a site, I didn't need to discuss these things endlessly at MFI. I could have said my piece and drifted off into the ether. What we espouse here is common sense and practical. That and a dollar won't even buy us a cup of coffee.

I began thinking hard about what really, really changes hearts and minds. And it's not just cogent debate and rational discourse with empirical facts. Sometimes we need a war to galvanize our beliefs. Sometimes we need enemies. Wring-rangs as Kurt Vonnegut would call them. People who become our examples of how NOT to do something. And sometimes it's about just not giving up. Standing up for what you believe in and saying the same thing over and over and over until somebody--anybody listens. Eventually the RIGHT people will listen. Somebody at Apple. Maybe Steve himself. And you know me, I'm happy to beat the dead horse, repeat myself until I'm Aqua in the face, and hammer on my points again and again until I win by attrition. The Mac, right now, whether they know it or not, NEEDS US. I mean they really do. OK, so they need the iPod MORE. But listening to us and they'd be a better COMPUTER company. They'd make even more jillions of dollars.

But I like that we have had a unique way of weaseling our message in to the Mac Community. I like that when you visit here, you expect one thing and get another. I think that's like life. I LIKE being a crackpot. I also like letting the real me through in the clutch. You've all seen my tactics for years. Set 'em up, knock 'em down. Fight fight, think, fight, think some more... calm down, laugh, then discourse and dialog. That last 0.1% and then people are changed. You can argue that we don't have to go through all that. I say we do.

I say people have to hate me and get pushed to their limit before they'll wise up and realize they're being gamed. Not just by me, but by Apple, by this culture.

So to ask me to remove that game from the site is like asking me to give up one of my favorite, effective weapons in a war.

We just got through HAVING a battle royale, and now it turns into a vocabulary debate of why we call it a battle royale. That's healthy, sure, but we only see it because we're past the battle royale stage. We've been baptized by fire, gotten toughened up. Actually, we should be way past WORRYING about whether or not the world thinks we're wackos. I don't. I get a kick out of it. What's the alternative? Helping people? Spreading peace and goodwill and good manners like Shalom Place? Puh-leez. Screw that. I like wackos better than sensitive PC wusses. The silver lining glas-half-full set never did it for me. Bring me your angry, your pissed off, your trolling ranters, yearning to vent free.

Apple is FUCKING UP. Some people see it, some are boating down da river denial. I'm just happy to rock the boat is all.

I don't think you guys realize what a powerful voice we are. I can see it in every Mac blog site, I can hear it when I talk to any Mac Faithful in real life. Hey, they may not join or post, or read our words frequently. But osmotically our ideas have invaded the community. That's clear to me. It don't take more than a handful of brothers to change the world.

We'd never have seeped into Mac culture if we played it straight. I really believe that.

Will we ever play it more respectable? Yeah, why not? I'd be open to that. We could soul-sell just like Apple, sell T-shirts just like SpyMac, whatever. Time, money, and energy permitting, we could go mainstream. But none of us are doing this to turn a buck yet, and that's what makes us unique. That gives us chops.

SpyMac si teh 1111111111111111!!!!!!!!!!

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I like that when you visit here, you expect one thing and get another.

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I wonder how many good contributions and discussions we've lost because someone showed up, saw the false advertising, decided we were just loonies, not serious, looking to fight about anything, and clicked out before looking further, because they wanted something more substantive than we appeared from the front page to be.

Putting someone off and saying, "His loss if he didn't look closer" is no way to spread the word.

You can give someone a pleasant surprise when you've already got them, not when you chase newcomers off by making the place look as uninviting as possible.

Markle


Added:

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It don't take more than a handful of brothers to change the world.

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Apple is dumping OS X? Getting rid of Aqua? Giving Platinum as an option? Sharpening up those screen fonts? Restoring the user-friendliness of the Mac?

Please identify what tangible changes we've accomplished with the my-way-or-the-highway Unix jockeys at Apple/NeXT.

We'd never have seeped into Mac culture if we played it straight.


But, we do play it straight. We play very straight among ourselves and with people who show up here. Even you, during your OS X rantings, play it straight. You could deny good features, or advance lines of incoherent reasoning, or just simply present a raster of lies to advance your argument, but you don't. Instead, you provide facts and evidence and rational analysis to back what you say. The only time we are not playing straight is when we are presenting our face to the world. We pretty much promise that we are unreasonable zealots, who can't play it straight.

You like the misdirection? Isn't it backwards? Why are we leading with our collective ass? If we first convince folks that we are whacko zealots, that will make them more open to see things our way? Really? Convincing them we are mindless zealots makes us different than other sites? One cannot find zealots engaging in fact-free, irrational babble at any other site? How's about nearly every other site, and most of TV?

The force and power here is that we do play it straight. That's what is so tough about thalo.net. That is what sends some crying into their pillows promising never to post anything to that forum of hard guys at thalo.net ever again. Why, those guys just won't let people get by with crap talk. Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo.

If we are going to have misdirection shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't folks come here thinking they are going to engage regular toned down, 'moderator-ed' talk and then be either shocked or delighted at what they find? For my part I don't think there should be any misdirection at all. At thalo.net one can advance one's honest opinion without censor. All you have to do, if you are able, is put up with others doing the same thing. If having someone else say what they think makes you go all queasy inside and want to cry to a moderator about how unfair it all is, then thalo.net is not for you. There are plenty of Wusses-R-Us sites around where they can find other wusses that will agree with every word they say and sensitive moderators to mother one's tender feelings.

As I said, I don't think there should be any misdirection at all. I view leading with the irrational zealot story as showing a weakness that we don't have. Free and open discourse is the exact opposite of that story. Tell them the hard truth of what to expect and let them decide for themselves if they are tough enough to take it.

There you go, asking for empirical evidence. Tangible changes, when our strength is in the intangible.

Brothers, we've sowed the seeds. There's a profound undercurrent of discontent. A grumbling. An eye rolling. The people who are gung-ho X-Men are the ones coming off as the psychos. Just by how effortlessly they suspend reality. We thumb our noses at reality, for laughs... and that's quite a different thing.

Hey, don't get me wrong. It's tough for me to justify being a con artist. Becoming the very thing that irritates me about Apple and the geek aristocracy.

I believe, I really do, that you won't get anywhere unless you desensitize people. If they're so sensitive that they wig out at "my way or the highway", they're ALREADY in Apple's pocket and by definition won't listen to reason. But if you show them how friggin' RIDICULOUS it is, to get hot over people expressing themselves, freely, without caring whether they offend... I think people eventually ease up.

Look at every major war we've ever had. It gets really intense, people cross the line, see red... then calm down. They see themselves becoming exactly the thing they're on about us being, and they have an epiphany. That we're brothers. We all want the same thing. And if we can play EACH OTHER that easy, imagine how much more Apple can play us, with marketeers and huge financial resources at their disposal.

I've always said, if people would get HALF as pissed off and offended at APPLE as they do at me--for doing the EXACT SAME THING (downtalking, pigeonholing, playing high-and-mighty-we're-better-than-you, overbloating simple ideas with excess happy horseshit, and dumbing down)--then we'd all have the OS of our dreams.

When I do it, it's the friggin' end of the world. When Apple does it, some bend over and take it. They respect Apple so much, hang on their every word, that when basically Apple calls them a retard, they say thank you Steve, may I have another. Well not me.

I see right through it. It's insulting, and it's holding back the industry. An industry where (and I will never, ever abandon the idea expressed in the following phrases) WE CAN HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO. We don't have to have things dumbed down and made romper room for them to be simple and intuitive. Apple can have us at hello, they don't need to give us the hard digikid sell, to emphasize passive entertainment because that's all they think we can handle. The fact that they're doing it, means --to me-- one thing. That they'd RATHER us be dopes. And that shows me their true colors. That shows me that OS X is designed to be exploitive. It's marketing leverage, not the best operating system for the personal computer.

Remember the old days? I mean do you really? Those guys, those designers and software engineers were on a mission. They forged a legacy. They were creating greatness. Not JUST to turn a buck, but because they wanted to elevate humankind. It sounds idealistic, but that's the way it was. OS X comes from a much, much more jaded place. It's defeatist. Desperate. It's a desperate third rate short con, by a company who believes that the only way to make it, is to go on the grift.

I say nay. I say the way to win, is to do something IMPORTANT, noble, and to try and stay true to your destiny along the way. Money will be the primary fringe benefit of treating the user base with respect.

OS X is a sham. It's offensive, distracting, and friggin' RUINS what was once the BEST computer experience going. Was a time I couldn't WAIT to get on my Mac. The virtual world of the Finder was a JOY to use. Now, I wake up in the morning and go, ugh, another day with stupid Aqua. Fighting it. Trying to teach it to serve me, when I know it's always going to be too stupid to do that.

No, -I- have to change. I have to slow down, and dumb down and work at lower capacity because my tools just got worse. It not only ruins productivity, it sucks the life out of me. It makes the experience of using this amazing machine cheap and trivial.

Back in the day, the Mac made me believe in myself. Made me think I could do anything. Now, it's all about Apple trying to hold me--and all of us--back. Keep us coralled, on the hook, spending more, passive, nosepicking, consumers. I won't have it.

It's your dime, thalo. You can do what you want. And I think there's still much to learn from this idea of "free and open discourse." That grand experiment is still in progress and I think we've barely scratched the surface. But being able to say "fuck" or "crap settler" for the millionth time is no substitute for real experimentation and pushing the boundaries. Terse arguments are a dime a dozen as is demagoguery. There is much territory left to explore, but who is going to be the one to challenge those barriers?

Here at thalo.net we've become familiar with one another (at least familiar with whatever mask or role we're playing at the time). Interaction develops to a certain point and then we hit a wall. We develop patterns, stock soliloquies, and attitudes and never go much beyond them. We just keep thinking up new and ever-more novel (and tedious) ways of saying pretty much the same thing. I frankly expect more from this group of people who are smart in brains but thick in attitude sometimes.

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Originally posted by jay:
No it wasn't a chip. Given my experience with mAxximo on Ars I just figured I'm come over and see how a thread like this went.

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Who are you on Ars, jay?

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Originally posted by thalo:
Remember the old days? I mean do you really? Those guys, those designers and software engineers were on a mission. They forged a legacy. They were creating greatness. Not JUST to turn a buck, but because they wanted to elevate humankind. It sounds idealistic, but that's the way it was. OS X comes from a much, much more jaded place. It's defeatist. Desperate. It's a desperate third rate short con, by a company who believes that the only way to make it, is to go on the grift.

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I always thought this was a key concept in understanding why the Mac will always be the Mac and why OS X is...well, OS X.