I dont know pretend to know who you are Rave but could you keep from crapping on what has turned out to be a very educational civilized thread? Who the hell are you anyway? I think you should just do us all a favor and freaking leave.



Jesus, Jay! This 'new' fellow, Rave, can leave or stay as he pleases. Get off your high horse. What the hell are you getting all prickly about? You get a post late on New Years Eve and you take it to heart? People do have a few drinks on New Years Eve. It's not unheard of. So he got a little more blunt than usual. It's not the sin of the century. Hey, it was late on New Years Eve and he thought of you and sent you a post. That's worth something isn't it? As I said, people have been know to down a couple on New Years Eve. Ya gotta take people as you find them. Open up a little. Let people be themselves.

Yeah, I know. The guy called you a dipshit. Call him a shithead right back if it makes you feel better and get on with what you were saying. You were saying? You did have something to say, didn't you?

Welcome brother Rave!

Yeah, brother jay, sorry, but we don't make playing nice a rule here. Dish it right back, or continue to be educational and civilized as you like. Your call.

Back to a previous issue: yeah, I do use Norton. Just because I installed it PRIOR to SP2 on my then-new PC (the first non-mac computer I've ever paid my own cash money for)... Then came SP2, and there was a default option to just leave Norton active. I'm lazy and so did that.

I don't hate things because Microsoft made them. I'm not a big fan of Windows, but that's because I'm a hardcore Mac veteran. I am a fan, in fact, of the original Finder design team, and the Platinum team. OS 9 served me well in my life and work. I was ready to move on, but there's a lot of usability and performance issues I wish would be revisited. I think the Mac has become dumbed down since the legacy. Its soul lost, its heart ripped out. All in favor of cheesebag digikid marketing and a big fat opensource con job designed to keep us paying for the same software in perpetuity.

I'm not thrilled with the rampant bloat of Office for OS X (in my more curmudgeony moments, I often say that Microsoft Word has gone downhill since version 5.2... everything later has been crappy and overdesigned), but listen I don't like the apps for interface reasons, not because Microsoft made them. If I get quality software, and it works smoothly, I don't care who makes it.

I am a Mac loyalist, but I don't have to friggin' hate Microsoft or Linux to be one. I frequently point to things that Windows is currently doing better than OS X, stuff like FONT RENDERING, and basic interface responsiveness. Better customization options. Faster web browsing and more playable games. These are things I'm JEALOUS of. Arenas I think the Mac should be more competitive in.

Meanwhile, I'm a longtime Norton customer. I've been one since there WAS a Norton. I agree they've fallen off, but I blame that on OS X being a mess. I really haven't been able to tell if Norton sucks on my PC or not. I'd have to disable it and activate SP2 security to have a frame of reference.

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Originally posted by HighHopes:
Jesus, Jay! This 'new' fellow, Rave, can leave or stay as he pleases. Get off your high horse. What the hell are you getting all prickly about?

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Yeah, I know. The guy called you a dipshit. Call him a shithead right back if it makes you feel better and get on with what you were saying. You were saying? You did have something to say, didn't you?

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The word delusional comes to mind here. Thread Crappers suck but I guess given that this is a forum populated by what other people used to call, "Thread Crappers" maybe you guys just dont care as much. Either way maybe their ought to be a minimum standard of decency enforced around here, eh?

Either way: Fuck you Rave. And while I'm at it, you too HighHopes.

Either way maybe their ought to be a minimum standard of decency enforced around here, eh?
Either way: Fuck you Rave. And while I'm at it, you too HighHopes.


Yeah, right. Decency is what's needed.

You get your say, but you cry like a little girl if someone else has his. You can either stay and say what you want or take your tender wounded feelings elsewhere. Your choice.

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Either way maybe their ought to be a minimum standard of decency enforced around here, eh?

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I disagree. I'd rather promote free and open discourse, and risk indecency. Because as we see with, uh, EVERY other forum out there, it's all the myriad interpretations of decency standards, and all the infinite possibilities for becoming offended that ultimately leads to squelching, and the scenario where some brothers think they are better than others.

Here? Nah-ah, level playing field. You have to get as good as you give, or else exercise your personal decency-barometer and avoid those exchanges. This is way more like a schoolyard with no teachers to help, or tell.

We have to iron out our own differences, and that's basically what's happening here. But nobody here is going to TELL you to do that or else. There are guidelines for moderation here, but they are really "less is more." And in a year plus of having this place, nobody has violated the real serious crap. There has been no combination of words that has broken the law or endangered life, limb, or privacy. The only posts that have been edited or deleted have been by pilot error. It's never degenerated to the "Lord of the Flies" kill piggy kind of thing. (Actually there was once a brother NAMED Piggy in the MFI days who I still miss ). Nobody has tried posting friggin' KIDDY PORN or a snuff film or anything. Nobody has tried using the posts to transact business like selling machine guns, switchblades or WMDs. That might bring the mods down on you.

Really the only decorum crime that I can think of, is squelching. Actually trying to pressure or campaign or blackmail somebody into shutting up. Some of my hate mail to this day threatens to disrupt my personal or business life... just because they don't agree with the stuff I say in these forums.

Anyway, I've always totally preferred to hear what's REALLY on people's minds, no holds barred. You can do that here. For free. I'll pay the bills, you get a place to let it all hang out. And for the privilege, all you've gotta do is try to get into a headspace where you can deal with the fact that your brothers (and sisters) have the same freedom.

For people who need strict rules, they can go to Apple Delusions. They've got rules upon rules. An almost Orwellian repressive program of ensuring that you toe party line and think happy thoughts. I tried to play by their rules, I really honestly tried. And still I got squelched. All I can really do is try to make this place as far from that as I can. I can guarantee you two things as a thalo.net brother: First, that if I can at all help it, you will get to speak your mind freely and openly. Wait, it ain't that this is some gift I'm bestowing on you. I think you exercising your freedom to express yourself is a gift to me and all of us. Nobody can really GRANT you the freedom of speech. It's something you decide you're going to exercise. But some are good at qualifying and trying to control it. Here, we try not to be control freaks about that. Second, I guarantee you that if your feelings are easily hurt by reading words on a computer screen, you WILL find feelings-hurters here.

But heck, some of my best online friends are feelings-hurters. I'd certainly rather hang out and debate with feelings-hurters than the holier-than-thou decorum police. We became the bastard child of MacFixIt because freedom is better than tyranny. Better for discourse, better for the Mac.

quote:

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Either way maybe their ought to be a minimum standard of decency enforced around here, eh?

Either way: Fuck you Rave. And while I'm at it, you too HighHopes.

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Oh, thank you for that laugh, Jay. I'll have to check with thalo to find out if that is an instance of non-sequitur, irony or whatever, but it rates as a Post-of-Fame line. And I see that there's this moderator title next to my name, so I guess I should respond. Let me lean toward the definition of "decency" that is weighted more toward the moral for purposes of commentary.

The decency aspect that you mentioned is pretty much going to be in the heart, soul and mind of whoever is sitting in front of the keyboard. In the short term that decency (or lack of it) will be little changed by the manner of writing. But a crude, obnoxious, angry, hateful, belligerent, ungenerous style of communication will begin to eat away at a person. It will, in fact, reinforce and possibly worsen one's measure of decency. Conversely, communicating with an affable heart can help to reinforce one's munificence.

I could enforce civility and politeness by editing posts, issuing warnings and banning posters, but could never hope to enforce decency. That has to come from the participants and it comes from a deeper place than just forms and customs. But one is certainly free to observe one's own code of ethics in terms of politeness and civility. It's a free choice to do so at thalo.net, as others have mentioned. Some think being all nicey-nice is dorky or a sign of weakness. Yeah, peer pressure can be tough to escape from. But the option still remains to stick to one's own sense of propriety. If one views this place as a somewhat seedy bar where normal rules don't apply and where, quite naturally, the atmosphere is a bit looser, where f-bombs may be hurled and splashed off the sawdust floor, then that too can be accommodated. It's your choice. The difficult thing to do is to chart one's own course free from the constraints and regulation of Big Brother. It's easy to use someone else's conduct as an excuse to lower your own but that's still your choice.

I disagree. I'd rather promote free and open discourse, and risk indecency.

I didn't read your schtuff before posting mine so let's add up the differences. Hmmm...I'd say free and open discourse is not directly related to decency. I'm quite sure I can say what I need to say, no matter how complex, either with the mouth of a sailor or with that of Madison. But I would say it's been quite illustrative just how dependent people have become on a forum administration, Veterans Administration, Social Security Administration or any kind of an administration to show them what to do and how to do it. Thalo.net is interesting because it's a chance to see what people will do with a blank slate. So far the answer is "not much". Oh, I don't mean to discount some of the amazing thoughts spread around here, but the world apparently does not beat a path to "free and open discourse". In fact, they shrink from it. Most people prefer a few more constraints. Frankly, I don't blame them but I also think that we need to exercise our minds to notice constraints, imagine why they are there and identify who put them there. This is not so as to remove all constraints (at least as far as I'm concerned) but to identify the minimum number needed to foster the greatest amount of freedom. Right now the tendency in the democratized world is not only for ever-more constraints but, much more ominously, for a rising level of comfort among people for these constraints. Thus thalo.net is still a wonderful "think tank" (guinea pig is more like it) for the does and don'ts of internet forums if not for larger subjects.

In conclusion (thalo, I don't want to hash this around forever, I got a movie to watch), whether "free and open discourse" sounds like a bar fight or a church meeting is far more up to the participants than they realize. Practice makes perfect.

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Hmmm...I'd say free and open discourse is not directly related to decency.

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Actually, I agree with that. But jeepers, you'd never know it having seen what we've both seen in online forums.

Same with every art form. I'm sure Howard Stern could have been the Madison of radio, but CHOSE to use the communicative power of indecency. For laughs, to make a point, because that's the way he is, whatever.

People choose to make it about decency instead of something else. For a variety of complicated, and not-so-complicated reasons. I mean, decency ain't a bad thing to aspire to... right? But it means more when--like you say--it comes from the participants instead of a governing body.

Where we go screwy is that kind of ENFORCED decency, legislated or cultural pressured decency, i.e. Political Correctness. That's where we end up losing freedom and embracing tyranny.

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the world apparently does not beat a path to "free and open discourse"

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Not yet. Rome wasn't built in a day. But it certainly is beating a path to personal expression. Look at the explosion of blog sites. This medium is growing by leaps and bounds. We're just ahead of our time, brother Brad When people realize that the quality of forum participation improves with freedom, there's going to be fewer control freaks. Right now, it seems like it's all about reining people in, controlling, doctrinalizing behavior. That's just 'cause the medium is fairly NEW. I think we're the first to realize that NOT doing all that controlling crap is healthier.



What movie?

Heh.

I think that if somebody created a userid and started a thread entitled, "Fuck you Greybeards" there would be some moderator action taken. What is happening here appears to be a way of silently letting me know that despite the fact that I haven't been banned, because of my disagreement with you - anything will be allowed to go.

The bottom line is this: I've been quite affable and understanding in this thread. I came in here looking for some answers to a few questions that I had and they were received. I took a shot at Rico for his seemingly misunderstood comments that were likely inspired by a childlike (you may replace childlike with mongoloid if you wish) sense of humor (though based on on Rico's lack of response we don't actually even know that - we only assume it).

Then we have this asshole Rave who comes stumbling into the thread and doesn't even attempt to civilly discuss the issue. Instead he spews some garbage and decides to leave it at that. After reading this I was quite annoyed as I don't believe I have done or said anything to deserve such a response, so I called him on it. What I get in return is a bunch of "Rave apologists" struggling to step up to the plate to defend him/her with their declarations of "New Years Drunkeness" or their "Commitment to Free and Open Discourse".

What I smell here people is bullshit. A lot of it. This forum is literally populated by people known as "Greybeards" who in all honesty, can't stand the fact that 99% of ex-Apple users believe that OSX is hands down better than that piece of MacOS 7/8/9 garbage ever was. You guys only started this forum because you were unceremoniously ejected from your other Mac boards for crapping on the forums and the threads populated by the vast majority of users that were pretty satisfied with OSX. You guys are only here because you can't get over the fact that the world disagrees with you. So does it truly come as any surprise that somebody, no matter how docile, that walks in here who dares to disagree suddenly finds himself being dogpiled by "Anti OSX Apologist" bullshit?

Heh. I think not. What I do think is that thalo and most of the others that have responded to this thread recently need to take a serious hard look at the dogma they are spewing before they shelf me as some sort of nuisance to be squashed.

What I smell here people is bullshit. A lot of it. This forum is literally populated by people known as "Greybeards" who in all honesty, can't stand the fact that 99% of ex-Apple users believe that OSX is hands down better than that piece of MacOS 7/8/9 garbage ever was. You guys only started this forum because you were unceremoniously ejected from your other Mac boards for crapping on the forums and the threads populated by the vast majority of users that were pretty satisfied with OSX.



So, basically you came here looking for a beef. You didn't really find anyone to argue with so you started a fuss all on your own. Terrific, kid. Check back in again when you graduate from junior high school. Goodbye.


Heh

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Originally posted by HighHopes:
So, basically you came here looking for a beef. You didn't really find anyone to argue with so you started a fuss all on your own. Terrific, kid. Check back in again when you graduate from junior high school. Goodbye.

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You can try to weasel out of this all you want but I didn't start anything. I've been subjected to catcalls of "dipshit" and "crapsettler" and I've had to listen to you guys defend such closed minded thinking. My post was designed to illustrate the irony as well as the thought process behind the response I've seen to me calling out Rave, who was clearly looking incite something.

Also don't call me kid. In terms of professional experience I've likely lapped you at least two or three times. In terms of common sense there isn't even a comparison. The fact is I was being 100% civil until a 3rd party by the name of Rave (who for all I know is one of you looking to generate some drama) came in here and starting dishing it out. Then I watched as you and your so-called "brothers" began to play the dogpiling game. It seems clear to me that there are two modes of operation in effect here:

1) It is not okay to call somebody out who calls me a "crapsettler" and a "dipshit".
2) It is okay to dogpile somebody for attempting to maintain some sort of intelligent civil discourse.

It's no wonder you guys got ejected from other forums. I mean if you find it this difficult to coexist with a peaceful outsider in your own domain I can't even begin to imagine how badly you acted while in somebody else's.

The difficult thing to do is to chart one's own course free from the constraints and regulation of Big Brother.


You nailed it, Brad.

This seems to be the hardest hurdle for folks who visit here. They get so used to being bossed around that they don't know quite how to behave when they are encouraged to be themselves. They think speaking one's mind means it's kosher to cuss and swear at people and fart out loud and generally behave childishly. Mainly because they have been told all their lives that without being bossed everyone will degenerate into barbarism. Who makes this claim? The people doing the bossing around!

If thalo.net net proved anything this past year plus it is that people can engage in spirited meaningful discussion on big issues, really big issues, without breaking into waves of "fuck you." To me this is not surprising. The notion that we need to be bossed around for our own good is a lie. A damn lie. Useful to those who advance it, but a goddamn lie.

HH said: Mainly because they have been told all their lives that without being bossed everyone will degenerate into barbarism. Who makes this claim?

That's a pretty astute observation. I doubt we'd come up with the same answer to your question but it's a good question.

Thalo said: We're just ahead of our time, brother Brad When people realize that the quality of forum participation improves with freedom, there's going to be fewer control freaks. Right now, it seems like it's all about reining people in, controlling, doctrinalizing behavior. That's just 'cause the medium is fairly NEW.

I'm reading Restoration by George Will. It's from about '92 and it's all about term limits, but he makes the point that one of the good sides of all the junk that was going on back then (and still is, really) is that it caused Americans to look back at the fundamentals of this country. I have the sense, particularly with people in America, Europe and the newly-wired developing countries, that they will be able to discover (or re-discover in the case of America and Europe) the fundamentals of freedoms. Civic-mindedness has definitely been enhanced by the internet and internet forums. People all over the world are discussing the issues of the day and they're discussing them in much more detail and more intelligently. A water cooler clutch is relatively shallow in comparison and doesn't have the advantage of the words being permanent.

We could almost make the equivalent of that whole "Denial/Anger/Bargaining/Acceptance" thing with the way people approach thalo.net, and jay is a good example. First there's the "You guys don't really mean 'free and open discourse'". Then there's the, "Well, sure, I can drop an f-bomb or two but I'll be shut up in a minute if I say something you don't like." Finally (and a number of you here have been through some of these stages) you have HH giving me heck, and vice versa, and the title "moderator" is insignificant and invisible.

It's actually a bit startling because you can see just how indoctrinated we have all become when we see the newcomers approach this. We actually have to practically go through a twelve step program just to say what's on our minds, present company included.

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This forum is literally populated by people known as "Greybeards" who in all honesty, can't stand the fact that 99% of ex-Apple users believe that OSX is hands down better than that piece of MacOS 7/8/9 garbage ever was. You guys only started this forum because you were unceremoniously ejected from your other Mac boards for crapping on the forums and the threads populated by the vast majority of users that were pretty satisfied with OSX. You guys are only here because you can't get over the fact that the world disagrees with you.

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Getting a tad testy, are we?

I was never ejected from any other forum. Neither was Brad. Neither were several other of the participants who drifted over here. (I still ocasionally post at MacFixIt.) We do, however, tend to be somewhat contrarian in our opinions, and we've survived a sort of Darwinian process that made us strong. We don't go sobbing and trembling to our moms, er, mods, demanding that so-and-so be banished for daring to disagree with us...apparently otherwise known as "crapping on the forum." (Heh, haven't heard that one before.)

Continuing with our historical revisionism...

<< 99% of ex-Apple users believe that OSX is hands down better than that piece of MacOS 7/8/9 garbage ever was. >>

Then why are they EX-Apple users?

The threads "populated by the vast majority of users that were pretty satisfied with OSX" are nevertheless populated by a minority even of Apple's 2% market share. The majority of Mac users never adopted OS X. So the X users are a minority of a sliver of a niche.

The world may disagree with us, but the world hardly even notices the sub-1% of computer users who use OS X. The X-crowd doesn't even rise to the dignity of the world bothering to disagree with them.

And an increasing number of "the world" consists of your "ex-Apple users."

The price to be paid for participating in a forum where not everyone marches in lockstep like the drones in the famous Mac "1984" commercial is occasionally having to deal with an asshole. So what? For the price you get the fun of a more freewheeling conversation...and it's good practice for dealing with the world.

Markle

I was never ejected from any other forum. Neither was Brad. Neither were several other of the participants who drifted over here. (I still ocasionally post at MacFixIt.)

Were any of us ever banned? I thought we just left about the time the, (then) new moderator started issuing actual scripts for us to use as posts. I suppose any of us can post at MacFixIt if we thought it would be worth the finger effort. I haven't even looked in lately so I don't know if it is worth the effort or not.

HH giving me heck, and vice versa

Let's be fair, here. I don't remember you really giving me heck. Standing your ground for sure, for sure, but actual abuse? I don't remember that. Now, on my side I think some blame can be laid. Some of my posts are overly blunt. Sometimes when I re-read them they surprise me. What can I do? It's my writing style and I don't have the wide range of writing talent that others on this forum have. When I deliberately try to take the edge off the bluntness I wind up just watering down the post to the point where I'm not standing my ground. That seems worse. Yeah, it'd be better if I had more writing skills, but there it is. Barring a talent injection I don't think it's going to change.

That being said, and considering the large issues that are sometimes discussed, and also considering that people hold entirely opposite views here, I can't recall in all those thousands of posts members breaking out into an angry 'fuck you' barrage. What did it take Jay, 12 posts? And then the subject was only the small issue of a computer OS. A computer OS! And, this is while the site owner, moderators, and long time members were welcoming him!

I have to say this kid came here with an agenda. The little needling that Rico was giving him was just an excuse to carry out that agenda. Notice how fast his focus changed from the OS to the members and who has the right to post and who does not. Sound familiar? Same old crap.

How's this for a guess? This kid comes from some forum where maybe mAx or smithz did an analysis of some aspect of OS X, maybe font rendering, and the usual TROLL cry was sounded in lieu of a rational rebuttal. This guy found out they also have posted here so he thought he would come here and play the troll and see how we like it. He mistakenly thought thalo.net was a site dedicated to the worship of the legacy OS so he dumped hard on that in his opening post. That didn't get him the reaction he wanted, so the next thing he's tries is claiming he is being 'attacked' and is a pitiful victim of real mean folks. That doesn't get him anything, but a few good-natured jokes. Now he's in full self-destruct mode with the rest of us looking on in wonderment. Anyway, it's a guess. He doesn't seem to be crazy.

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Originally posted by HighHopes:
...I can't recall in all those thousands of posts members breaking out into an angry 'fuck you' barrage. What did it take Jay, 12 posts? And then the subject was only the small issue of a computer OS. A computer OS! And, this is while the site owner, moderators, and long time members were welcoming him!

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And my "fuck you" was only directed at two people:

1) Rave who is clearly responsible for my annoyance.
2) You because you will bend over backwards to paint the guy who disagrees with you as more of a problem than the person that says, "WINDBLOWS 3.1 - OMG DIPSHIT CRAPSETTLER!" and offers no explanation or actual content within his/her post.

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I have to say this kid came here with an agenda. The little needling that Rico was giving him was just an excuse to carry out that agenda. Notice how fast his focus changed from the OS to the members and who has the right to post and who does not. Sound familiar? Same old crap.

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No - Rico has nothing to do with this. I got annoyed with Rico but I was assured by people that it was his nature to make such odd joking statements. So I let it go. This has everything to with Rave. Rave posted garbage, I called him out on the garbage and you guys suddenly step up to the plate to defend him. Why? I mean you surely don't know anymore about him that I do, or do you? All we publically know about Rave is what we can gather from his single post in which he types and spells like child, reasons like a block of wood, and uses language fit for the pigs all while making no sense whatsoever.

Yet despite all of this everybody here steps up to defend him...? Explain that to me. "He must've been drunk" just isn't good enough. That is the issue here. If the forum was truely welcoming me then I wouldn't have to worry about them standing behind every thinly veiled troll who calls me a dipshit simply because I have a different opinion than he/her. How does all of this make me a troll?

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How's this for a guess? This kid comes from some forum where maybe mAx or smithz did an analysis of some aspect of OS X, maybe font rendering, and the usual TROLL cry was sounded in lieu of a rational rebuttal.

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Heh if you must know... I originally found out about thalo.net from Maxximo on Arstechnica back when he would post there. I was however geniunely curious as to what you guys were trying to accomplish here, hence the thread.

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This guy found out they also have posted here so he thought he would come here and play the troll and see how we like it.

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I'm not playing troll. I'm actually offended that at one minute the forum is welcoming me despite my basic disagreement with them and the next they are dogpiling me for calling out a n00b who just posted a lot of unsubstaniated garbage.

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He mistakenly thought thalo.net was a site dedicated to the worship of the legacy OS so he dumped hard on that in his opening post.

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Isn't it though?

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That didn't get him the reaction he wanted, so the next thing he's tries is claiming he is being 'attacked' and is a pitiful victim of real mean folks. That doesn't get him anything, but a few good-natured jokes. Now he's in full self-destruct mode with the rest of us looking on in wonderment. Anyway, it's a guess. He doesn't seem to be crazy.

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How was I not attacked? Lets take a look at what Rave said to me:

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Linux/XP crapsettler, NEXT!!

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Were you stoked about Windblows 1?

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AFAIC you don't have a clue!

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Silly crapsetteling dipshit

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Yeah I wasn't attacked. Seriously take the time to actually read what happened HighHopes instead of digging your hole even deeper. I responded:

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I dont know pretend to know who you are Rave but could you keep from crapping on what has turned out to be a very educational civilized thread? Who the hell are you anyway? I think you should just do us all a favor and freaking leave.

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Rave's response was 100% called for. But I didn't flip out instead I just asked him to leave and keep from crapping on what until that point had been a very educational discussion. Now we move onto the part that annoyed me even further which were the responses to this by thalo members (at my expense):

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Originally posted by HighHopes:
Jesus, Jay! This 'new' fellow, Rave, can leave or stay as he pleases. Get off your high horse. What the hell are you getting all prickly about? You get a post late on New Years Eve and you take it to heart? People do have a few drinks on New Years Eve. It's not unheard of.

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That sounds like an Apologist if I ever heard one.

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Originally posted by HighHopes:
Yeah, I know. The guy called you a dipshit. Call him a shithead right back if it makes you feel better and get on with what you were saying. You were saying? You did have something to say, didn't you?

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Hell you even suggested that I lash back out at him - now you are complaining about it? What kind of trickery is that?

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Originally posted by thalo:
Welcome brother Rave!

Yeah, brother jay, sorry, but we don't make playing nice a rule here. Dish it right back, or continue to be educational and civilized as you like. Your call.

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Thats right because there is only a rule against being an asshole if the asshole happens to disagree with you, right guys?

I rest my case.

I already knew that OS 9 corrupts memory now I can see that it also corrups minds. Steve was damn right to put OS 9 to sleep, it was nice to have in the 80's and 90's. But they are no more, so get used to living in the 21st century. An OS written for a hacked up little computer is not meant to be used as a OS for our current generation computers. (But an OS like unix was not written to be so silly as the orginal Mac OS)

In my mind Steve is goinig on the right course with OS X. Without him Apple would be lost, and windows NT would be bitchslapping apple all around the place.

While I that Mac OS X has it flaws, it a a lot better than OS 9.

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I think that if somebody created a userid and started a thread entitled, "Fuck you Greybeards" there would be some moderator action taken.

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Absolutely 100% NOT TRUE, brother jay. If you don't believe me, try it.

Meanwhile, tell me again just who is shelving you? We're having a spirited discussion, and I personally am digging the disagreements. I always do.

Sure, I think you're dead wrong about OS X, but so what else is new? I think you know exactly where I stand, I think it's crap and OS 9 had a better interface and was better equipped to handle pro workflows.

Do I want to go BACK to OS 9? Harsh reality tells me that won't be happening. Like almost every Mac person, I'm basically adopted. Disappointed, but adopted. I'm pretty sure there won't be a return to OS 9 like there was a return to Classic Coke. But do I want OS X to be better, and maybe ANALYZE why the Platinum interface was so much more responsive and intuitive? Absolute-a-mundo.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is a lot OS X could LEARN from OS 9. But OS X learned everything from NeXT and Windows and focus groups. And we've all seen the results. Crap. Not to put too fine a point on it.

While the iPod is kicking ass, there is no Mac Pro out there worth his or her salt who doesn't see that the Mac is struggling. Yeah, there is promise and potential. We've had three years of promise and potential. But pretty much SQUAT other than digkid/digital hub stuff has been delivered.

Working Mac pros like me are SUFFERING THROUGH OS X. It's not doing a magnificent job. Will it? I hope so. But right now it ain't. I live that every day. I have no problem saying that things were better and easier and realizing my creative vision happened more effortlessly in the legacy. And it's all a result of this interface being piss poor and unreliable and slower than shit.

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While I that Mac OS X has it flaws, it a a lot better than OS 9.

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Welcome, brother Bah! Nice to have you here.

I think Mac OS X's flaws are egregious. They're not minor overlookable things to me. They are workflow stopping, irritating bullshit flaws. Crap where nothing makes sense. Crap where fonts are blurry and the interface becomes WAY harder to use than the legacy's was.

If you make a living on a Mac, sorry man, the flaws are magnified. There is some really, really ridiculous shit in OS X. Half-assed beta nonsense and happy horseshit. The computers resources are mortgaged up the crap-chute to try and draw all the nonsense. And we have no option to customize our Mac interfaces to minimal and non-distracting, short of using the friggin' TERMINAL for everything.

The heart of the problem is that the infrastructure, the substrate of this OS architecture is FILE SERVER rather than "personal computer"... it's simple fetch and retreive, when it should be smarter and more app oriented. Apps are clunky and ridiculous on it, and eventually drop dead. And that's unacceptable.

X-men point to the fact that the kernel stays afloat. I say so fucking WHAT? What good is that if Apps are slow and shit the bed on you?