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So I was at D this year and obviously you and Jobs were at it as well. And you guys got up on stage together, I think that was -- besides being a really historic moment -- very emotional for a lot of people in the audience. I want to know what it was like for you personally. I think a lot of people were confused as to whether or it was truly bittersweet, or just bitter. I felt it was really bittersweet.

Oh, I like Steve. And I've always been extremely complimentary of the impact he's had on the industry. Part of it, in terms of that whole crowd though, is that the personal computer industry was started by people who were very young and there was a set of people who believed in it and all kind of grew up together. So Steve and I are virtually the same age -- he's a little bit older, he got into it about three years after we had done the original personal computer stuff -- and he was my sixteenth customer for the BASIC interpreter. I had done the Commodore six months before, if you remember that, I had done the TRS-80 eight months before, and then they needed the floating point basic. I came out and I actually worked more with Woz -- Steve wasn't a hands-on engineer involved in that thing -- because Woz had been trying to do his own BASIC but just couldn't get it done.

So we've always worked together on various things. When Steve did the Mac, that was our closest relationship. That was about thirty people at Microsoft, twenty people at Apple betting on moving the graphical interface into the mainstream. That was a phenomenal experience because we did the only 3rd party software that was on that machine the day that it shipped. And when they went 512 [kilobytes of memory], we did some stuff. They thought [Lotus] Jazz was going to the breakthrough product, but we showed them that Excel was the breakthrough product. So there's always been good back and forth. I am very sincere that Steve has unique skills that I just don't have at all and it's been phenomenal to see how he has been able to make a difference with what he's done.

So when you got up there, what was it like for you emotionally? I mean, Steve quoted the Beatles; it felt like there was just this bizarre camaraderie / rivalry that is almost inexplicable.

Oh absolutely. We had a chance -- I think Steve and I are the two luckiest people in the industry in terms of the center seat we've had, and the involvement we've have been able to have. And we know that it's been a special thing and where we work together it's helped the industry, and even when we've competed it has probably been good for the industry.