Somehow Panther is really laggy at times. First weeks of panther usage were smooth, scrolling would be fine, same with Illustrator. Now it bogs down like a snail, it'ss really strange. I don't have shapeshifter enabled, it's there, just not enabled, would that be why, or is this lagging a result of something else?

trif

Did you try repairing permissions? This is a good rule of thumb and starting point. It is a good thing after the installation of updates and or new software.

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Repairing permissions...repairing permissions...repairing permissions...repairing permissions.... REPAIRING permissions... repairing PERMISSIONS... REPAIRING PERMISSIONS....

You're a Mac user from 1999 transported to 2000 or later.... You've just been told you have to "repair permissions" on your computer. Do you have ANY idea what this is?? What's a "permission?" Why is it broken?

Ah, Unix.... Ain't it grand?


Markle

oh go rebuild your desktop.

Hey trif, do you restart occassionally? I notice that things begin to slow down after too many swap files get created (>10). The only way to really clear out the swap files is to restart. Just a thought.

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Originally posted by RICO85:
oh go rebuild your desktop.

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Good answer. Seriously...I was going to ask this earlier. Why do the permissions get mangled so quickly and to such a great extent? I would have thought that on a Unix system that permissions were very very important to the clean and reliable operation of the system. Are these things really deep down like almost optional? I would have thought that keeping track of permissions would be the ONE thing Unix would be good at and particularly anal about.

This is something I've been saying forever.

Performance degrades with time. The more you do, the flakier and slower everything gets.

I don't think it's JUST swapfiles. There's more to it. Remember, now everything we do is JOURNALED. LOGGED. You have to know to clean out all that crap periodically with MacJanitor or Cocktail or whatever the hell.

In the legacy, it was our desktop that needed maintenance. I fear in OS X maintenance is much bigger and scarier, and involves a lot more files. And the rub too is that permissions and prefs can get easily pooched in not only the maintenance cycle, but at the drop of a hat in day-to-day operations.

And so we nursemaid. This supposedly rock-solid stable OS is the princess and the pea. A diva, a primadonna. And when she gets tired, or feel she's overworked, she gets cranky. And when she gets cranky, she becomes vindictive.

Me, I don't want a high-maintenance OS. I don't want to have to say pretty please or I'm sorry. I want to smack it around and tell it to get to work. I don't want to walk on eggshells and have it throw tantrums or blackmail me into giving it a cushy job. Nah-ah, this OS is going to have to work for a living. Sooner or later, preferably sooner.

It happened to me again this morning. Cranking away in GoLive... cut and paste just up and stops working. No wait, this time CUT worked, but paste didn't. Like the clipboard just refused to load. Meanwhile, couldn't UNDO, so what I cut had to be totally recreated from scratch. That kind of horsehsit costs me time, and hence, money. I should know better. I should know you can't RELY on Panther yet. If you trust it with important tasks, you're dead.

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Originally posted by thalo:
No wait, this time CUT worked, but paste didn't. Like the clipboard just refused to load. Meanwhile, couldn't UNDO, so what I cut had to be totally recreated from scratch. That kind of horsehsit costs me time, and hence, money. I should know better.

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lol! that made me laugh I dunno why.

I'll try the permission stuff whenever I get a chance. I wonder if accumulation of cache files and temp files have anything to do with performance degradation...

<< oh go rebuild your desktop. >>

Thanks for the reminder, RICO. You always have good tech tips for me! It's easy to forget rebuilding the desktop, since there's rarely any visible problem if you don't.


Markle

<< I don't want a high-maintenance OS. I don't want to have to say pretty please or I'm sorry. >>

So you're saying you don't LIKE permissions.....?

Luddite!

Oh, go rebuild your desktop!


Markle

<< I would have thought that keeping track of permissions would be the ONE thing Unix would be good at and particularly anal about. >>

Nah, it's just about showing you who's the boss. Like when you call your credit card company, and the voicemail system tells you to tap in your account number...but then when the service rep finally comes on the line you have to repeat it all over again because what you entered didn't come up on their screen. It's just pointless hoops they make you jump through.


Markle

Performance degrades with time. The more you do, the flakier and slower everything gets.

Y’all know how much I hate to agree with brother thalo, but something else degrades over time: The Finder. Or maybe I should just say “stability.” I’ve had two total lock-ups in the last two days and about 4 perma-beachballings in the Finder - almost always when dealing with larger files. I just selected a 20 MB file, hit the delete icon in the toolbar, and permaballs. And remember; I’m doing only casual use stuff. No heavy lifting. I hadn’t had any trouble before the last couple days but now it’s coming in waves (appropriate for Aqua).

I don’t have this problem in OS 9. I don’t have this problem in XP. As they say, “it just works.” YCSMV.

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Originally posted by Markle:
It's easy to forget rebuilding the desktop, since there's rarely any visible problem if you don't.


Markle

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You mean hard to notice as in generic icons for apps and files, apps not launching or immediately quitting with type 1 errors, undeletable folders, and Finder unexpectedly quitting?

Are you sure you've actually *used* OS 9?

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Originally posted by thalo:
This is something I've been saying forever.

Performance degrades with time. The more you do, the flakier and slower everything gets.

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Horseshit. I use a TiBook, and have for over a year, and the more I do and the more apps I run has almost no noticeable effect on the speed and absolutely no effect on the stability of my system. This is not the case under OS9, as I'm sure you know. I'm talking about running Photoshop, Quark, Illustrator, Acrobat, Font Reserve, Mail, Safari, Excel, Word, iTunes, iPhoto and Carracho right now, and have not quit any of these apps since last Wednesday. I have put my computer to sleep several times in that period. I have not restarted in over a week. This "flakier and slower" crap is nothing but wishful thinking because you dislike Panther. You're cooking the data so you can continue to feed your little megalomaniacal rants to the fanbois on this site. nothing but mental masturbation that doesn't stand up to critical thinking.

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I don't think it's JUST swapfiles. There's more to it. Remember, now everything we do is JOURNALED. LOGGED. You have to know to clean out all that crap periodically with MacJanitor or Cocktail or whatever the hell.

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This statement shows such an amazing lack of ignorance of what journaling is and does that it's breathtaking in it's scope. You could argue - as you do with mind-numbing frequency - that "But I shouldn't *have* to know what journaling is or does I never had to with my warm fuzzy old mac system boo hoo meaow meaow" which is exactly correct - you *don't* have to know what journaling is or does, since it has no effect, no noticeable speed effect, and works completely transparently. In fact, the only scenario under which I would ever expect an "average user" - as you proclaim yourself to be - to know what journaling is or does is if they decide to whine about it in public.

For the record: journalling log files are tiny (@200k max on my 60gb HD) and are automatically cleaned up on restart (or perhaps periodically with OSX). You won't see large journalling serial logs because that defeats the purpose of journalling in the first place. Journalling under OSX gives you a tiny speed hit during disk writes ONLY, and this is only because they maintained backward compatibility (most other journalling systems are actually faster than non-journalled systems). No utility out there will "clean up" a journalling serial log, not only would that destabilize your computer, but these logs are inaccessible under the journalled system, just like b-trees are under classic Mac OS.

Great tech advice there, thalo. You tool.

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In the legacy, it was our desktop that needed maintenance. I fear in OS X maintenance is much bigger and scarier, and involves a lot more files. And the rub too is that permissions and prefs can get easily pooched in not only the maintenance cycle, but at the drop of a hat in day-to-day operations.

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I suspect that this unnecessary "maintenance" you keep doing is what's messing up your computer in the first place. You don't know what you're doing yet you go bounding off screwing about with files you have no idea what they do. This is like a classic - excuse me "legacy" - user not being able to print and moving their system file out of the system folder and wondering why they're looking at a blinking question mark on restart. You don't have to "clean up" anything on OSX, so don't. If you really think you're seeing a slowdown (highly unlikely since you don't sound technical enough to be able to do the tasks that would actually require this, but what the hell) restart your computer (if you're a big "legacy" fan you should be exquisitely familiar with this procedure) and it will automatically handle the "cleaning up" you so desire. If you really want to find out what the system is doing, go buy a book that explains how Unix works - you'll find them in the same area of the bookstore as the books that explain how the "legacy" system works.

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And so we nursemaid. This supposedly rock-solid stable OS is the princess and the pea. A diva, a primadonna. And when she gets tired, or feel she's overworked, she gets cranky. And when she gets cranky, she becomes vindictive.

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This sounds remarkably like how I recently described the author of the manifesto to a friend when he pointed it out to me. I suspect you need to form more relationships with real human beings as you seem to be anthropomorphising your computer's OS to an alarming degree.

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Me, I don't want a high-maintenance OS. I don't want to have to say pretty please or I'm sorry. I want to smack it around and tell it to get to work. I don't want to walk on eggshells and have it throw tantrums or blackmail me into giving it a cushy job. Nah-ah, this OS is going to have to work for a living. Sooner or later, preferably sooner.

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While you spend what appear to be huge swatches of time writing manifestoes and maintaining this entire site, your computer running Panther is ready and waiting to do real work. I know this because I use it on a daily basis to run the production for a fair-sized company (200+ employees, average of 100 separate jobs per day). Before that I used it in my website development business, and I have always been productive with it. I suspect you're blaming OSX for your own lack of focus and productivity.

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It happened to me again this morning. Cranking away in GoLive... cut and paste just up and stops working. No wait, this time CUT worked, but paste didn't. Like the clipboard just refused to load. Meanwhile, couldn't UNDO, so what I cut had to be totally recreated from scratch. That kind of horsehsit costs me time, and hence, money. I should know better. I should know you can't RELY on Panther yet. If you trust it with important tasks, you're dead.

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Seriously now, you were in GoLive and had a problem with cut/paste, and no undo, yet you're blaming Panther? Do a quick Google and you'll find noone else is mentioning cut/paste problems with Panther or OSX. Doesn't it seem that the most likely culprit is PEBKAC? And here's a tip from someone who's used GoLive since it was called CyberStudio and written reviews of it for Publish magazine: use Dreamweaver. GoLive's always been unstable (yes even when it was under "Legacy").

Honestly kids - go get a job, a hobby, or at least a hot steaming cup of STFU. All this bitching about Panther doesn't hold water or make sense, especially since you can always reboot into OS9 and stay there if you want. In fact, do us and yourselves a favor and DON'T RUN OSX IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT. But for crying out loud, quit being such a bunch of little whiny girls about it.

Jeez, what an asshole.

<< This statement shows such an amazing lack of ignorance of what journaling is and does that it's breathtaking in it's scope. >>

It's always hilarious when some computer-stud know-it-all gets so wrapped up in his own indignation that he mangles the English language. "(A)n amazing lack of ignorance"? You go, girl!

BTW, I'm an 8.6 man myself. And I said "rarely" because in my own experience that's what it is. Maybe 9 isn't as good.

But do feel free to drop in anytime and tell everyone they're wrong about everything.

Markle

Dogzilla is my hero...

LOL, yeah, a lot of people seem to become heroes when they get all upset and pouty at big bad thalo. Go figure.

Uh, excuse me, brother dogzilla, but I beg to differ. You and your TiBook experience have nothing to do with my three years plus of constant watchfulness and beta testing of this bloated nonsense. Waiting and hoping for OS X to stand up to my workload. Even make it through a single day as good or better than the legacy. I'm not buying at all what you say. And I'm pretty sure no pros do. If they did, they'd adopt. And they're not adopting. I say you're either not doing the same stuff as me, or you're delusional, settling for poor performance. Yeah, OK, there's wishful thinking going on here, but it ain't coming from me.

I may dislike Panther, but I don't want to. All my own wishful thinking has been, is that it will simply WORK, so I can adopt and get on with it. I just don't let that wishing prevent me from seeing the truth, like you don't.


I say without any problem, and have been saying it since the beginning, that OS X degrades with time. Gets slower and flakier with use. I've proven it over and over to myself.

You obviously don't understand what journaling is, why it's there, and what tends to go wrong with it. You jump to an assumption about the size of the logs being the exclusive cause of the slowdown. That's newbie thinking. It ain't how much disk space they take up (though that's part of the overall tendency to bloat). It's more the fact that the disk info in journal logs get pooched. Like prefs, like indirect inodes, like so much of OS X. All these little unforgiving snippets of garbage that are too delicate, too easily confused. Where if any ONE of them becomes corrupt, it grinds the whole system to a halt, forcing a restart every bit as much as a FREEZE did in the legacy. When a journal goes south, what happens? It tries to backtrack to a valid, working state. If no such thing exists, problems get perpetuated, they mutate... it gets to be like that game "telephone."

Let me correct a couple of things: b-trees are not inacessible under Classic. All you need is any disk utility. And there are no inaccessible logs in a journaled system. I guess you are not looking hard enough. Or, maybe that it's you have no idea what you're talking about. You're obviously content to reinstall when you run into a problem, let the whole arcane OS that you don't understand, just go about its business... oh, and restart it.

Believe me, I restart this crappy OS a thousand times more than I ever had to do so in the legacy. Why? Again, it breaks at the drop of a hat. Not from dicking around in the guts, which trust me, I don't WANT to do... but because with EVERYDAY PRO USE, the system grows unstable. Hey, I wish it didn't, but it does.

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I suspect you need to form more relationships with real human beings

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I get that a lot. And it's always the same thing. When people get all thalo-obsessed, they begin to project their own baggage onto me. And the brothership ends up learning way more about you than they do me. I get it, man, you're lonely. Another cry for help.

But you know what? Telling people to STFU because it hurts your little feelings that you got scammed, is not the answer. Crap-settling, and playing make-believe-I-have-a-decent-operating-system ain't working. I know, I know, you're worried people will think you are a retard for spending all that money on a TiBook... you got took. Well, newsflash, I did too. I feel your pain. There's no shame in falling for Apple's con job, they're very good at it. But that don't make it right. Do what I did and wipe it, and install the legacy. And fight for a better operating system instead of trying to protect your rosy red embarrased butt cheeks.

Uh, PEBKAC is victim blaming. Another thing you guys love to do. Sorry, but I'll say it again, I'm constantly outperforming this system. Cut and paste goes south all the time. You're not searching Google hard enough, because it used to happen with Classic routinely, until whiny little girls complained. You're talking to somebody who was in on the ground floor of GoLive, and has been a beta tester for every version. You don't have to tell me about the legacy problems, as I've always been about getting them fixed.

Same way as I've always been about getting OS X fixed. And big babies like you end up thanking me when I do, even though you piss and moan for me to keep my mouth shut.

Look, I obviously touched a nerve. Good. That's why I'm here. Bitching about Panther may not make sense TO YOU, but it obviously made enough sense for you to get all wigged out over it. And that's so telling. I think maybe you're not as happy as you pretend to be. Maybe you're just afraid to admit that you're disappointed. Maybe, like us, you're wondering why the fuck this beast doesn't work yet.

Hey, sorry, but I need this operating system to work. I need it to be better. And I don't care how much whining it takes. As long as it's crap, and doesn't work right, you won't see me looking through Aqua colored glasses and making excuses, blaming victims of a third-rate, half-assed, buggy, perma-beta grift-job.

About rebuilding the desktop in OS9: In the three years I used OS9 I never rebuilt the desktop. I never had to use macsbug nor resedit to main the OS. I never got extension conflicts either. Allocating memory to apps was easy. It's amazing how X-zealots love exagerate stuff about OS9 just to justify OSX's flaws.

quote:

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Originally posted by thalo:
Hey, sorry, but I need this operating system to work. I need it to be better. And I don't care how much whining it takes. As long as it's crap, and doesn't work right, you won't see me looking through Aqua colored glasses and making excuses, blaming victims of a third-rate, half-assed, buggy, perma-beta grift-job.

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So why not switch to Windows and be done with it? All this chest beating must give you ulcers.