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As a reminder of how far we've come from the classic Mac, the foregoing posts are absolute gibberish to me.
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No kidding.

What kills me, is that even using the language of the actual crashes, its own geekspeak, there is no one single person on Apple Delusions who could tell me what it means. And I'm talking to guys with four and five little blue brownnosing jewels. We have to remember that those are given for being good little scientologists and not necessarily technical knowledge or expertise.

Yeah, they may have 10,000 posts, but chances are, 6,000 of those are (in response to others' troubles): "seems rock-solid and stable to me!"

Yeah, they may have 10,000 posts, but chances are, 6,000 of those are (in response to others' troubles): "seems rock-solid and stable to me!"

Breakfast...milk...coming...out...nose.

Walt Mossberg of the Wall Street Journal has coined a name for syndrome. He has named it the "Doctrine of Insufficient Adulation"

From Farhad Manjoo's "Machinist" technical column:

In the fall of 2004, Walt Mossberg, the Wall Street Journal's influential tech columnist, reviewed Apple's latest desktop computer, the iMac G5. He absolutely loved the thing; you can tell from his first paragraph, which would not have been out of place at a beatification: "I am writing these words on the most elegant desktop computer I've ever used, a computer that is not only uncommonly beautiful but fast and powerful, virus-free and surprisingly affordable," he wrote.

Mossberg went on to say that the iMac "performed flawlessly and speedily," "was nearly silent," and that it "actually costs less than comparable Windows machines." He had only two tiny complaints. The computer lacked a built-in card reader to access pictures stored in digital cameras, and "Apple scrimped on memory," adding far fewer megabytes of the stuff than was common on Windows machines.

Mossberg's column ran for about 900 words; just 70 of them, or 8 percent, by my count, suggested anything even approaching negative criticism. Apple loved the review so much that it excerpted it in advertisements. Apple CEO Steve Jobs quoted it in his speeches. But Mossberg says that his mailbox told a different story. Several Apple fans felt slighted. What did he have against Apple? they wanted to know.

There are many tribes in the tech world: TiVo lovers, Blackberry addicts, Palm Treo fanatics, and people who exhibit unhealthy affection for their Roomba robotic vacuum cleaners. But there is no bigger tribe, and none more zealous, than fans of Apple, who are infamous for their sensitivity to slams, real or imagined, against the beloved company. "It's funny -- even if I write a generally positive piece about Apple, I still get more complaints from Apple partisans" than from opponents, Mossberg says. He has even coined a term for the effect. "I call it the Doctrine of Insufficient Adulation."

quote:

There are many tribes in the tech world: TiVo lovers, Blackberry addicts, Palm Treo fanatics, and people who exhibit unhealthy affection for their Roomba robotic vacuum cleaners. But there is no bigger tribe, and none more zealous, than fans of Apple, who are infamous for their sensitivity to slams, real or imagined, against the beloved company. "It's funny -- even if I write a generally positive piece about Apple, I still get more complaints from Apple partisans" than from opponents, Mossberg says. He has even coined a term for the effect. "I call it the Doctrine of Insufficient Adulation."

Wow. Great stuff, HH. That phenomenon is surely real. And I doubt it's been discussed more than it has been here at thalo.net. Somehow Apple draws these Scientologist-like people like moths to a flame. And it's just unhealthy -- for both sides. It doesn't help Apple if users crap-settle, and I can't imagine that making a tech company your religion is a good thing either.

How about: There are good points to Apple software and hardware, and there are bad points. And people will disagree about what those points are and/or how important those points are considered to be. But should something based on bits and bytes be the basis for a cultural movement of Scientologist proportions? It's just a machine. It's hardware and software, and I'm building a piece of software at the moment myself. I've seen behind the curtain. There's nothing really to hate or love. It's all bits and bytes, scripts and scraps, all of which can be changed depending on utility and whether it works right. Don't hate me, but by all means hate my code if you want. It won't bother me. It can be changed (although it might not be so easy to change me).

Mac users are mentally ill, or at least a large proportion of them are. And if not mentally ill, they are in need of the kind of hug that a glib computer manufacturer and ass-grabbing followers can't supply. I'm not a monster. Although I chide these idiotic Mac Scientologists, I also recognize that a lot of people are desperately trying to fulfill some kind of need. Well, instead of trying to exercise their fascists muscles (which I think all this "keeping in line" hate mail and coercion is all about), it's time to exercise their creative muscles, which is what Apple Computer was originally about. That's a good thing to uphold. But all this other crap is just loony-tunes-ville and verging on evil.

I don't have time for a lengthy post but your permission's should look like this:



I would set them like that then run Repair Permissions. There was no need to run Terminal commands.

brother Rico,

Right now my permissions on the boot drive look SORT of like that... except on mine "admin" is first, and "system" is second. I can't figure out how to change the order. I did apply the privileges.

Well it has to be system first and admin second. Try changing the second one first to anything other then system and admin. Then try changing the first to system. Then set the second one to admin. It is not rocket science.

For the record: "Is it just me?"

Yes broeder yes it is.

OK, remember when I said "I applied the privileges"?

Well, NEVER DO THAT.

Total catastrophic permissions lockout. Nothing worked. Then tried to repair permissions in Disk util. Didn't work. Error. Had to login as root and try it, but it was going to take--get this--over 20 hours. I let it run all night and it still was only about a third of the way done.

The only option open to me short of a total reinstall (and I need stuff from the current install) was to try a full TimeMachine backup. First time I tried that, kernel panic.

Now it's about halfway through. I should be able to get the RADIATOR to the state it was in on Monday. When it last worked. But that's going to mean the unknown user, and two admins and all that.

Also locked out of the job disks... why? Because admin is set to custom access, and won't let me set it to Read & Write even as root.

This is about as bad as it gets. Call me Mac killer.

Even if I get the boot raptor to work again, I have no idea if I'll be able to access the drives in the enclosure with that custom access bullshit. I may have to restore them from TimeMachine as well.

If TimeMachine works, it'll be a lifesaver. It's not very fast, though.

Once I get the machine at least functional, I have some work to do, then I have to plan out a full reinstall again. I can't have this happen twice. I'll tell you, I'm never hitting that "apply to contents" command ever again. I'm never touching permissions again to try and fix anything. I'll do "repair permissions" that's it.

I hate computer nightmares, and it sounds like you got yourself one there. I was reading about your pains a week ago and thought I'd use Disk Utility to repair my permissions because I don't think I had done so for many months. And I did so without incident. And just now, about a week later, I thought I'd do it again just for the hell of it. And I was shocked. For the first time ever when I ran "Repair Disk Permissions," it didn't find anything to fix. Never have had that happen before. It always finds something. Hmmm. I must have gotten upgraded somehow to a Magic Mac.

Thank God for that TimeMachine.

But I still had trouble trying to gain access to my hard drives in the enclosure! Holy crap, how did THAT happen? I didn't apply any permissions in those. And when I booted up from a totally fresh install, those disks still had little locks on their icons.

I had to use the terminal to get root access/ownership, only then could I make "admin" Read & Write.

Still, on my Finder Get Info permissions, it reads admin first, system second and then everyone. I have no idea how to change the order of those. I can't drag them.

Things are not all by the book, but at least things work again. The most stable Finder Get Info permissions for my boot drive look like this:

thalo (Me)- Read & Write
admin - Read & Write
system - Read & Write
everyone - Read only

That's only for the hard drive level directory.

The inner folders: Applications, Library, Users are like this:

system - Read & Write
admin - Read & Write
everyone - Read only

But the folder "System" is like this:
system - Read & Write
wheel - Read only
everyone - Read only

Meanwhile, my home directory says:
thalo (Me) Read & Write
staff - Read only
everyone - Read only

But that's what works.

When I do Repair privileges, it always sees ACLs where they're not supposed to be. I don't know if it gets rid of them or what. But my permissions repairs take many minutes. Despite being told by the progress bar it's going to take less than a minute. Liar liar pants on fire.

Wasn't that always the rap on Windows? That you spent a lot of your time screwing with the computer trying to get this or that to work? Welcome to "Son of Windows"! Now instead of getting your work done you have a full time hobby.

And you have the added benefit of having your very own (and our much beloved) X-man, Rico, blaming you for the problems full time. Now, that's real convenience! We don't need to go elsewhere to have X-men tell us that everything is just fine, couldn't be better, and that we are the problem. The only thing that needs a redesign is the user.

Happy to hear that you've gotten some functionality back. Good work.

quote:

Wasn't the always the rap on Windows? That you spent a lot of your time screwing with the computer trying to get this or that to work? Welcome to "Son of Windows"! Now instead of getting your work done you have a full time hobby.

You said it, brother.

Holy crap. I honestly didn't sign up for this. I want plug and play and set it and forget it. Now, in all likelihood, I'll be reinstalling from scratch AGAIN because if those few permissions things are pooched, something is bound to come back and bite me in the ass about them later. Until I can score that holy grail of a "perfect" install, I'll always be to BLAME for any fucking nonsense that happens, while Apple skips along the garden path whistling a happy tune.

That's what's Windows-like. This crap is so arcane, that only über-geeks and engineers understand it, and the more counterintuitive it is, the more we're supposed to be impressed. Well, nah-ah, not me. What impresses me is simplicity and functionality and intuitiveness. None of which I'm experiencing as I break and rebreak Leopard. Which I wouldn't have even TRIED to touch, if it were working right.

quote:

Originally posted by thalo:
Now, in all likelihood, I'll be reinstalling from scratch...

Damn! That does sound like Windows. Work on it for days and then have to apply the Windows Universal Fix and reinstall from scatch. And then have that not work and you're back where you were and the only thing to do is put up with a flaky, half-working system like everyone else.

Here's the solution to wayward ACL's (Access Control Lists) that you see in Disk Utility when repairing permissions.

1. Go to the Terminal
2. Type: sudo chmod -N
3. Drag the directory path to that line, make sure there's a space after "-N". So for example if your Disk Utility details say:
ACL found but not expected on "Library/Application Support". You drag that directory or file to the line in the terminal whereupon it should read:
sudo chmod -N /Library/Application\ Support
4. Hit return
5. Enter an administrator password
6. Hit return again

Fuckin' ooga booga nonsense.

If, like me, you have external drives that suddenly get little lock icons on them and you don't have access, you have to do this:

1. Login as root
1. Open the terminal
2. Type chflags 0 /
3. Drag the hard drive icon to that line in the terminal
4. Hit return
5. Do "Get Info" on the hard drive icon from the Finder
6. Unlock the little lock on the window, and add the admin user, or give the admin user Read & Write privileges

OR, if you don't want to login as root, I think you can do it by doing "sudo chflags 0 /<drag hard drive icon here>
and hit return, enter password, and return again. But when I tried from that point doing the little lock in the Finder, it didn't let me. I had to be in the Finder logged into my root account. Maybe different for you, who the hell knows.

Are you certain there isn't more you need to do to access your hard disk? Maybe throw some chicken feathers in the air while you dance around in a loincloth and slap yourself on the butt with a goat liver?

Give it a try. Might work.

quote:

Are you certain there isn't more you need to do to access your hard disk? Maybe throw some chicken feathers in the air while you dance around in a loincloth and slap yourself on the butt with a goat liver?

LOL! That's exactly what it feels like. Superstitions and incantations. It's basically superstition that keeps Apple apologists saying that Leopard is this great and stable operating system. Reminds me of "your God is a loving God." There are some who'd argue that, based on their experience.

For me, Leopard is Javier Bardem in "No Country for Old Men." Completely capricious, malicious and unpredictable. With a coin-flip separating me from total destruction. It's a world where no good deed goes unpunished. I made the cardinal sin of NOT BEING SATISFIED with the performance of my hardware and software. I began to seek solutions. And happen to know enough Unix to harm myself. In trying to fix my situation, I made it worse. I got slapped down.

And now, after wasting a day trying to get things running again, I have a computer unlike any other. A mark of Caine. When brother Rico does "Get Info" on HIS boot drive, it proudly says system-admin-everyone, in that order. In bizarro-thalo world, that reads thalo-admin-system-everyone.

It's actually poetic. Because I have toiled and battled for the primacy of the end user... in its odd flaky state, my computer puts me at the top of the list, and "system" third. Funny.

And it spitefully won't let me change it. As if it's taunting me: yeah? You want to be Mr. Big Shot Mac critic? Here you go. But now we can't guarantee you that things are going to work right. They don't work right unless you're a good little soldier and stay in your nice casual user consumer-rather-than-producer chimp box.

quote:

Originally posted by HH:
And you have the added benefit of having your very own (and our much beloved) X-man, Rico, blaming you for the problems full time.

Who else is there to blame? The system software did not change the permissions on it's own. Broeder thalo changed the permissions. Then instead of saying broeder Rico I totally fucked up my brand new installed system he runs off to Apple Discussions to solve the problem he created. God only knows what the Terminal commands he was told to do did to further screw him royally. Basically his best bet is to just get out the install CD's then start from scratch again. None of these problems have anything to do with the system software. It is purely user error plan and simple.

I have stressed the less you tinker the better off you are. Instead of following this advice lets run the Terminal and start really fucking yourself good.

Broeder thalo did you try changing the permissions by making the second permissions anything other than system or admin. Then change the first to system. Then you should be able to make the second one admin.

The less you tinker, the better off you are. Yes. Except BEFORE I began tinkering, I was having trouble. That's WHY I began Tinkering. I couldn't leave well enough alone. I had to try and figure out why my apps kept crashing. Now that I'm back mostly to normal, I still think there's enough evidence of some kind of bug with that mdworker process.

I did try changing permissions by making the second permission anything other than system or admin. Doesn't work. And I have no way to "change the first to system" it doesn't let me do that. The closest I can do to that is add a sharing user CALLED "system", but it's not the same as the REAL system, and ends up adding an (unknown) user to the mix.

Right now, I'm at the point where when I repair permissions, there's nothing to repair. That took scrubbing out all the ACLs that I had put in by stupidly doing "Apply to enclosed items". That's the one Mac-killing thing you should NEVER do on your boot drive from the Finder. Never ever. That was the biggest mistake I made.

Let's review WHY broeder thalo even touched permissions...
#1: sharing wasn't working between the Radiator and Seabiscuit. The Radiator wouldn't make available Seabiscuit's drives over the network.

#2: after that, because once I could get the drives to share, my permissions suddenly "looked wrong"... I tried to fix them back to the way I thought was more like you get after you have a clean install.

Oh, by the way, if I get info on the shared drives from Seabiscuit, the permissions look like this:

admin - Read & Write
everyone - No Access

The boot drive on Seabiscuit looks like this over the network:
(unknown) - Read & Write
everyone - No Access

presumably that "(unknown)" is admin, but I can't change it to admin.

No mention of "system" anywhere.

Every drive I get info on, it says "You have Custom Access"

quote:

The Radiator wouldn't make available Seabiscuit's drives over the network.

The problem with this statement is the Radiator has nothing to do with making Seabiscuits drives available over the netowrk. The Server software on Seabiscuit gives out that access. You set up user access to the share points using the server software on Seabiscuit. None of which involves changing Get Info window permissions on any drive to gain access.

I don't know what to say about your present permissions status. For all you know every Level 4 and 5 user at Apple Discussions has access to your machine when ever you are connected online now from all the Terminal advice you received there.

I have said before your problem is you are using primarily Adobe applications. Adobe can not code for shit. Example camera raw. When new cameras are released Adobe adds support for them. Adobes programmers actually respond on their forums. There is a statement by one of them how he personally messed up coding for the Pentax K10D creating a bug. Then he blames Pentax for his own error. These are the nitwits you are dealing with. If you haven't done so already I strongly suggest you turn off all the Adobe startup scripts. Don't use Adobe Stock photos.

I should have said something about those Firmtek drivers but I figured that you were buying new so it would not be an issue. My mistake.