Right now no PC company makes hardware that looks as good as Macs, and no OS looks as good as OS X.

That part right there just breaks my heart. You get a good rant going, build up a head of steam, and then SPLAT, you hit the pavement. What's the code for the "eye roll" emoticon?

It's the supposedly "good looking" parts of the OS that are half the problem. This isn't the first time I've seen this. Someone gives a laundry list of complaints about Apple, Mac and/or OS X and, I suppose just to give the impression of objectivity, they drop what they see as a compliment and I just want to slap them upside the head with a printed copy of the AHIGs (softly, and with no intent to inflict harm – you'd have to have read the sports pages recently to get that one).

Like I said. It just breaks my heart.

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and no OS looks as good as OS X.

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...DOH!

Had me mildly interested right up to then.

I think my own personal blind zealotry would be in fine shape right about now, if OS X was good, looked good, and worked. Because its blindness is a result of unbridled self interest vis-a-vis good toolage. All about what the hardware and software lets me do... not being duped by how it passively entertains me, or gives me a sense of rescuing Apple from the jaws of Microsoft.

Oh, there's pandering going on all right. But the worst of it is probably to the marketing suits, probably not to the grand poobah himself. Like I said, this stuff reeks of middle management. They are playing Steve for a chump. I don't think Apple's current sellout/losing its soul phase is all the big guy's fault, he's just showing some weakness and greed. Companies are never just one guy. The buck STOPS with the mock-turtlenecked one, but I hold out with the belief that once a visionary, always a visionary. Ego or no ego, it's selling out that's the problem. Important men have been pandered to before and still managed to change the world.

Look at Frank Lloyd Wright, Thomas Edison, etc. Asswipes all. Surrounded by kiss-asses, but who did their best work as long as they didn't listen to anything but their inner vision.

All these guys also knew how fickle the public could be, and all went through a phase where they resented that. That's where downlooking and downtalking creeps in. I fear that's where we are now. 95% of the computer using public didn't "get" the Mac, so it's pretty easy for the focus-group types to argue the rest are dopes, and then go ahead and design software for dopes, for the sole purpose of turning a buck. It's called caving. And is a commmon step along the path to glory.

So now it falls to the user base to get Apple back on track. Point out that the money will be sweeter if they are truer to the original vision. If they earn it, rather than go on the grift to get it. Remind Steve that his place in history is certain if he gives us his best, instead of playing us.

Look at Frank Lloyd Wright, Thomas Edison, etc. Asswipes all.]

LMFAO! A thousand monkeys could type for a thousand years at a thousand internet forums and I'd never expect to run into that combination of words. I tend to equate FLW with imagination, style or eloquence. The asswipe comparison just floored me.

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Oh, there's pandering going on all right. But the worst of it is probably to the marketing suits, probably not to the grand poobah himself. Like I said, this stuff reeks of middle management. They are playing Steve for a chump. I don't think Apple's current sellout/losing its soul phase is all the big guy's fault, he's just showing some weakness and greed.

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I suppose this is where I should cut in and tell you the Easter Bunny isn't real. Jobs is only as brilliant as the people around him. That he may seem otherwise is because he is quite brilliant at taking all the credit for the accomplishments of others.

So now it falls to the user base to get Apple back on track.

That's the plan. Unfortunately the only way people really have to influence things is to vote with their wallets. Buying more Apple stuff is tantamount to patting these guys on the back and saying "Thank you, sir. Can I have another?" Switching to another platform might help you but it won't do much for Apple. So what's a left-leaning, Apple-loving, Jobs-nosing, AHIG worshipping person supposed to do? Feedback? Perhaps, but as we've seen it brings only a trickle of useful changes. At this pace we'll have an interface as good as OS 9 by 2010.

Tag. You're it.

Oh man, FLW and Edison were notorious. You think Shannen Dougherty was a difficult primadonna? Psh! She's nothing compared to some of the greats who favored the visionary position.

And that's what it is, a position. And sorry, I recently saw the Easter Bunny (guy dressed up in a big pink bunny suit handing jellybeans in the grocery store)... so I think you're wrong there. He's real enough for me to benefit from by getting a free sugar rush. He even let me take only the black ones.

Brilliant at taking credit is a kind of brilliant. Gates is a billionaire because he managed to think of a way to take credit before anyone else. People resent the visionary position, search for holes in it and so forth, but that doesn't make it a bad thing.

Neither being a prick or taking credit disqualifies Steve from being able to give me more than jellybeans. In fact, I'd argue that he's uniquely equipped and positioned to provide pro users with exactly the type of systems they need. I probably wouldn't have wanted to hang out with General George S. Patton, but I'm damn glad he was where he was back in WWII.

You know how anti-tyrant I am, and if Steve would actually abuse his power in a tyrannical fashion... using it to torture or squelch or create a climate of fear, yeah, OK, he'd be a bad man. And crap like that does happen in the corporate world. There are totally moral grey areas. If Apple lawyers come here and try and step on my neck, for instance; put the muscle on me to shut me up... I may see it differently... but right now to me the issue is not whether Steve takes credit. It's that he's SELLING OUT. It's not whether he's heavy handed, it's whether he can be heavy handed enough to deliver the goods for me, on a product I desperately need to survive. I think he can. He's doing an abysmal job of it right now with OS X, but actually it is SO bad that it kind of gives me hope.

When wrong turns are this drastic, usually something happens to set them straight. The eye candy backlash is already underway. Apple is already reacting to it. It's just a matter of time before we achieve less is more.

And even though the reason I want less-is-more in my operating system is all about me me me; that doesn't stop me from seeing it as a significant step to improving human life. My motives don't have to be 100% altruistic, for the outcome to be good for the Mac Faithful.

Jefferson had slaves. Banged one. People are immoral and weak and moral and strong sometimes in the same day. They rise to tasks and have visions and do great works despite their imperfections.

[This message was edited by thalo on Fri May 09 2003 at 10:02 AM.]

And sorry, I recently saw the Easter Bunny (guy dressed up in a big pink bunny suit handing jellybeans in the grocery store)... so I think you're wrong there.

How can I possibly argue with that? I stand (hop, actually) corrected.

People resent the visionary position, search for holes in it and so forth, but that doesn't make it a bad thing.

Ying: Jobs is an ass.
Yang: Jobs is a visionary.

No, Brad. Jobs is both a floor polish AND a dessert topping! I know. I know. It's a bit more complicated than either extreme. Or maybe not. Maybe he's both extremes, depending on the time of day. Apple's best friend and worst enemy. Now I'm talking in sentence fragments. I blame you for this. Bad influence.

I probably wouldn't have wanted to hang out with General George S. Patton, but I'm damn glad he was where he was back in WWII.

Those who live by the analogy die by the analogy. Okay. You got me there – sort of. Because after the beaches of Normandy were hit and we were bogged down and needed to break out, we needed a Patton. We needed someone unconventional to get us out of our rut. But when the war was won, thanks in large part to Patton, we then turned to others. After Apple's Amelio-aise (add that one to the lexicon) was broken by Jobs and he reinvigorated the Mac it was time to turn to the builders, the George C. Marshalls. There is no Marshall at Apple. What we have is Stevie endlessly storming the countryside wreaking havoc.

People are immoral and weak and moral and strong sometimes in the same day. They rise to tasks and have visions and do great works despite their imperfections.

And often because of their imperfections. This modern notion of a person being unfit for political office, or whatever, because they've made some whopper mistakes in the past is ludicrous. Give me those who have already made the stupid mistakes and learned from them and I'll trust them with bigger responsibilities. The other side of this coin is that some mistakes do reveal a certain lack of inherent wisdom and character.

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Give me those who have already made the stupid mistakes and learned from them and I'll trust them with bigger responsibilities. The other side of this coin is that some mistakes do reveal a certain lack of inherent wisdom and character.

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THALO.net's first fridger!
Have you been following the Bill Bennet debacle? Here's a guy who has said a lot of really great stuff... fighting the good fight thinking about the human condition, his latest book "Why We Fight" a best seller. So when he turns out to have a serious gambling problem, blowing millions in Vegas and Atlantic city, what happens? Cries of hypocrite, hypocrite. Like how dare somebody capable of that kind of wicked lifestyle dare to write about morality? Newsflash: writing about morality, and living a moral life are two different things. Even Jesus H. Nazareth had a moment where he faltered. And this was a guy who said "judge not lest ye be judged."

People are so worried that the words and ideas carry less weight if the person who says them can't live up to them. It's a peculiar human dynamic. The assumption that only perfect people have the right to have good ideas. That the strength of the ideas is locked up with how sterling the character of the author is. I think that's baloney. If we couldn't conceive of things beyond our grasp, we'd never evolve. Remember the early days of thalo when everyone was worried about my arguments being diluted by the fact that I wasn't being nice as I said them? As if I owned the idea of Less is More, and if I was a scumbag, Less is More wasn't going to be true.

Well, I am here to prove that that kind of association blinds people; and is one of the things I became thalo to test. You don't have to admire the source to see the truth. That lack of wisdom and character you're talking about exists apart from the realm of ideas. The trick is finding the good ideas and removing all the ego-driven subjective BS that surrounds them. There's bloat in the realm of ideas, just as there is visually and functionally in OS X. Cut the bloat, and it leaves us with a polished gem. And I think the best way to cut the bloat is to be able to--individually--learn to see through it.

Well said, Mr. Madison. I couldn't agree more, although this picture in my head of giving you "fridges" is a little unsettling.

Every discourse needs its fridgers. Those word-bytes that stick with you. Read. My. Fridge. No New X-Men.

OK, so if I really do print them out--even in draft mode--and magnetize them to my fridge, there is definitely something wrong with me... but hey, that one was worthy of it.

And it's getting even uglier...

This guy claims Apple not only leaked confidential information about him but smashed up his PowerBook.

Yikes.
That is getting ugly. You know, as critical of Apple as I am, and as much as I think they're screwing up with OS X... I have nothing but great things to say about their repair department and Exec. relations department. Sure, I've had hardware repair issues, I've had some stuff come back looking or working worse than it went in, dings and scratches and things getting beat up.

9 times out of 10, this is a carrier issue. Damage in transit. The box is a dead giveaway. It's frustrating, maddening, but it always gets worked out in the end. If you're persistent, and bring your issue further and further up the corporate food chain, you'll get it fixed or replaced for nothing. The biggest thing is stay calm and maintain your sense of humor.

You just have to get right back on the phone, take no BS, tell them you don't have time to screw around you have work to do... and send the unit right back.

This guy is getting paranoid and turning it into the X-Files. Believing Apple has it in for him personally. It takes quite a bit of effort to become a blip on their radar. They're not as sensitive to this kind of thing as, oh, Scientologists. For them to go after you, you really have to have proven yourself some kind of a crook.

He is totally justified in being pissed off that his repair issue has turned into a nightmare, but I think he's maybe jumping the gun on assuming that there's some evil nutcase at Apple with a hammer that has a hardon for him. It would be kinda cool and creepy if that were true, and he'd certainly get a free TiBook eventually if that were the case... but I think it's all in his head.

You also have to learn how to speak Apple. When they say "there's nothing wrong with the latch" that means the latch itself. The individual part. In other words, if that latch was in a decent lid, without a ruined TFT or a warped case, it would work.

Looks to me like this unit took a real pounding. I'd say dropped on its edge from height. Like the height of a Fedex plane's cargo door to the tarmac. Warped the case East-West, so when you close the lid, the glass snaps on the crest. It's a telltale damage pattern. Same with the pressure-wounds on the body of the laptop (The marks that don't clean off). These are because the edges of the warped lid are impacting the body with more force than they should be, and are digging in, marring the surface.

The facts of his ticket being "leaked" are another matter. The thing with the chocolate means an Apple employee either blabbed to somebody who then posted details, or took matters into his own hands because he had made up his mind already that Manzione was scamming them. That's a definite slip-up on Apple's part. Now it can be the carrier or not and it doesn't matter, it's gone too far. But it makes no sense to me that you'd then go ahead and kick the crap out of his TiBook even more, if what you were trying to do was prove he had abused it himself.

Maybe I'm just so tuned in to grifters, but I watched a few seconds of that video and I have this guy pegged as a conniver. It's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

This guy is getting paranoid and turning it into the X-Files. Believing Apple has it in for him personally.

He could be a malicious crank but he sounds simply as if he's had an eye-opening bad experience. It's something I can relate to. I can't point to any one thing that brought me to this same opinion YEARS ago but I no longer trust Apple as far as I can throw them. Excerpts from another one of John Manzione's opinions (or rants):

There are tens of thousands of happy Mac users that simply refuse to accept any criticism of their beloved Apple Computer. Attempt to shatter their illogical and often obsessive love for all things Apple and you take the chance of being bombarded with hate mail the like of which you have never known before. An email that made its way to my own mailbox recently that stated that I “should die a painful and horrible death by SARS” isn’t even the worst I’ve received over the last two years. But it gives you an idea of just how volatile some users can be.

The Mac Web, in my opinion, should play various roles, but none of these roles should include promoting the ‘reality distortion field’, defined by an unhealthy belief in all the spin Apple puts out. Any site that promotes Apple in this manner is nothing more than a shill for Apple and their role is suspect, unless they admit up front that their mission is simply to build a shrine to Apple.

Shattering the ‘distortion field’

When some opinion writer takes on Apple, as I recently have, it is a delicate balancing act between opinion and a rant. No matter how carefully the piece is written some people will view it as a rant, and nothing you say will change that. The people who view every opinion against Apple as a rant are those that view Apple as incapable of doing anything wrong, they are victims of Apple’s ‘reality distortion field’. The inability to see through this distortion field is truly one of the saddest things we witness as writers on the Mac Web.

PC connection just released its sales report for the last quarter. PC connection saw a 21% jump in sales, while Apple sold a few hundred thousand LESS units in the same quarter. Yet, when you listen to Jobs, his “innovate through this recession” spin takes on a life of its own, even though the reality is PC sales are picking up and Mac sales are slipping. People who refuse to see the reality of this are caught in the reality distortion field.

This guy doesn't, at least at first glance, sound like a crank. He sounds like THALO.net material.

Yeah, no kidding! Sign him up.

Well, he's obviously way better in print than he is in front of the camera

Believe me, I'm right with him when it comes to criticism. Apple Computer itself takes criticism better than some of its users do.

I've gotten all the hate mail, I've seen the underbelly of the Mac Faithful trying desperately to hold on to the status quo and their sense of self. I tend to think most of the really misguided ones are teenagers, but what do I know. I'm guilty of that obsessive love for all things Apple. Where I became a fan as well as just a prouct user. But I never once took it as far as "they could do no wrong."

It boils down to this: at one time Apple was worthy of having shrines built to them. The AHIGs were an achievement that could inspire that kind of loyalty, because it put the end user experience on a pedestal. Now, it all reeks of exploitation, because they're dumbing it down so far. Apple is celebrating stupid (evidence=switcher campaign), and when the not-stupid stand up, the celebrated get upset.

The more they identify criticism of Apple as criticism of them personally, the more upset they'll be. Apple meanwhile, has brought this on itself. When you exploit digikids, you take responsibility for their behavior. Which is why I think they were better off just trying to make good tools.

[This message was edited by thalo on Sun May 11 2003 at 04:30 PM.]

It boils down to this: at one time Apple was worthy of having shrines built to them. The AHIGs were an achievement that could inspire that kind of loyalty, because it put the end user experience on a pedestal. Now, it all reeks of exploitation, because they're dumbing it down so far. Apple is celebrating stupid (evidence=switcher campagin), and when the not-stupid stand up, the celebrated get upset.

The more they identify criticism of Apple as criticism of them personally, the more upset they'll be. Apple meanwhile, has brought this on itself. When you exploit digikids, you take responsibility for their behavior. Which is why I think they were better off just trying to make good tools.

I agree with your nutshellitization, although I have to acknowledge that the sheer geek capabilities of OS X are enough for some to consider the whole package as "smartening up". But I don't come from that side of the railroad tracks. With Apple tanking as badly as they are in selling computers - and gaining whatever momentum that they now have from the sale of online music which is a venture completely unrelated to operating systems per se – I'd have to conclude that my side of the tracks has some merit.

And doesn't this kind of stuff from Manzione signify the kind of uprising you've had in mind, thalo? I certainly hope that the guy didn't just get pissed off and throw his PowerBook against the floor in a vengeful attempt to discredit Apple. But we need more people to break out of the RDF and any baby steps like these seem to be a welcome sign. It's apt to spur positive action because of negative comments. That's an idea that's practically hanging over your front door.

Yeah, I guess any time people stick up for the product they want, it's the kind of uprising I had in mind. When people show they can't be manipulated or fooled or taken advantage of, it's going to make the product better for everyone.

The geek aristocracy thing is important. The people who can disconnect from the GUI and turn up their noses at it don't really care if it's being dumbed down. They think it's there for chimps anyway. And since they were never versed in a really terrific GUI, Aqua is indeed a step up. They're holding it up to Microsoft or xWindows, not legacy Mac.

Like I said, the short end of the stick is the Mac Faithful. People who understand and depend on the GUI as the best way to get to functionality. Apple wouldn't be tanking AT ALL if they were building on their strengths, and their main strength was the interface. We are poised for a Mac renaissance, the only thing that needs to happen is for Apple to stop making boneheaded mistakes and trivializing the GUI. They took the easy way out, they did it on the cheap (eye candy is cheaper than making it work), and they're paying for it. They forgot the Mac Faithful have money to spend on fancy computers and software... but only if they work. I know so many people in my line of work who are nursemaiding their old macs and completely ignoring X as an option. Not because they have anything against Unix, but because they're convinced that the Mac is heading away from being a pro platform. They're right.

I've said it before, but I'd pay ten times the price of Jaggy for a pro-capable operating system. If it really did the job without all the BS. That's a no brainer. If Apple is looking for ways to make money, there's an opportunity right there. Make an "elite" pro OS, and charge through the nose for it. But for god's sake, make it look and behave more like Platinum than Aqua.

Yeah, I guess any time people stick up for the product they want, it's the kind of uprising I had in mind.

So if someone is lurking on this forum, what would you suggest they do? Or is this more a case of people needing to be run through some sort of twelve step program where they are confronted, where we have some kind of "intervention" and get people to stop denying the problem There will be anger, bargaining, etc., all along the way. There will be "thalo, you're the devil." Then "thalo, you have a point but you're so obnoxious about making it that no one will listen, in fact they'll do the opposite." And then maybe finally "thalo, you're an ass but you're right. There IS a problem."

I've always seen a major part of this process to be just talking about GUIs in general; what makes them bad; what makes them good, etc. It's like democracy. People can most intelligently talk about things such as the McCain-Feingold bill if they first understand the principles underlying freedom of speech. God knows our culture and education system are a bit light on teaching principles these days and teaching the art of critical thinking.

Talking about GUIs is certainly the first step. The next is talking to APPLE about GUIs.

And the people who most need to talk to Apple are "GUI Mature" individuals. By that I mean people who can tell eye candy tricks from good GUI. Usually that means Mac Faithful pro users. People the least likely to be duped by the focus-group generated nonsense, and most likely to see through it.

It's one thing to just like eye candy, think it's cool or attractive, it's another to be able to analyze if it is the best way to access the functionality of the computer. To be able to discern the times that it's there for a good reason, and times when it's there for no reason other than to play the "GUI immature" folks.

It's like any kind of advertising. Some people can look at it with a critical eye, see what the game or con is... and others will go: mmmm, must. get. a. whopper. An ad agency employee looks at a TV commercial with a way more critical eye than a middle school student. Is more versed in the techniques of selling sh*t.

It's the same with the Mac. People who know the vocabulary of GUIs through using a good one (the legacy); the less likely they are to be blown away by stuff that doesn't contribute to the effectiveness of the computer as a tool. Likewise, people who have come to the Mac for passive entertainment, and who are being entertained, tend not to look at things with a critical eye. They're marks. And like anyone who's been the victim of a grift, they're reluctant to admit they've been had. They're twice as likely to say: "it's what I wanted anyway." Rather than admit somebody had their number.

I can't fault Apple for advertising. They are not the first to bow and scrape before the almighty buck. Not the first to sell out, and not the first to play on the "stupid is cool" phenomenon. But it's manipulative. I liked them better when they were on their high horse, living up to very sophisticated ideas like the primacy of the end user. I think when they hatched the AHIGs, they had their heads screwed on much straighter than they do now. Before, they were thinking of "the rest of us"... now they're thinking of themselves, and looking down at us.

Before, Mac users were earth shakers, status-quo rebels and creative artists waiting to be born... now they're doofi. Red-eyed apathetic brain cell destruction factories. Remember the switcher ad with the girl who lost her term paper? You just knew that she didn't give a flying rat's ass about what the CONTENT of the paper was, just that it was the minimum to fulfill the assignment to avoid a poor grade. Those are the people Aqua is directed at.

Apple is telling us to do the bare minimum. To crap settle. They're telling us everything will be OK as long as we listen to music and watch bouncies. They've forgotten how to inspire excellence, because they stopped caring about providing it.

They're pandering now, instead of pioneering. And like I said, I miss the days when they had chops. When they really stood for something great. The stuff that NEVER should have been dumbed down, has been. And it's going to make them has beens. I find that totally tragic.

We can't rely on the people who've BEEN duped, who ARE easy to please, to haul Apple's butt out of the flames of mediocrity. They're already lost. They're fighting for self respect, deluding themselves into believing the situation is better than it is... exactly like people who've been the victim of a confidence man. They deny there's any problem at all.

No, right now the responsibility rests with the Mac Faithful. People who are HARD to please. People who hold Apple to high standards, rather than low. People who don't settle for less than what they need. People who are ALWAYS saying stuff like "hey, this could be better." instead of "it's good enough."

With Aqua, the test is how far can you strip it down to core functionality. What you're left with, is the answer to the question "what the heck is Apple up to?" The fact that a user can't streamline/customize his or her OS down to a relatively eye-candy free version, means that eye candy is what drives this software. It's a showcase for marketing vehicles, not good solid working software.

I've been through the evidence a million times, but the analogy is the new upscaled icons and fonts... set them to the smallest sizes and they mush up, you can't see them. Set them big and you can. That's a window into Apple's intent. Push the envelope and find out what APPLE thinks OS X is supposed to be, merely by noticing when it's capable, and when it's not. When you see that, you can tell if YOU are the kind of user they are targeting.

I'm not, and I know that other pro users feel the same way. This software does not do well the things pros need most. It does well the things Apple thinks casual users want most. Like playing MP3s and drawing splashy interfaces. Plugging in digi devices and horsing around with them for shits and giggles.

The second, and I mean the nanosecond you ask more of the OS than it is prepared to give to its intended user base, it collapses under its own weight. I've proven that over and over and over and over.

The next is talking to APPLE about GUIs.

We definitely need a Henny Youngman rim shot emoticon.

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Before, Mac users were earth shakers, status-quo rebels and creative artists waiting to be born... now they're doofi. Red-eyed apathetic brain cell destruction factories. Remember the switcher ad with the girl who lost her term paper? You just knew that she didn't give a flying rat's ass about what the CONTENT of the paper was, just that it was the minimum to fulfill the assignment to avoid a poor grade. Those are the people Aqua is directed at.

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It wouldn't matter if he said "Remember when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?" Get out of his way, folks, he's on a roll.

One of the proudest moments as a provocateur that I can recall, was quoting that Belushi monologue from Animal House about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor, and brother Thundarr calling me to task.

As for OS X, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.

And we're just the guys to do it.

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One of the proudest moments as a provocateur that I can recall, was quoting that Belushi monologue from Animal House about the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor, and brother Thundarr calling me to task.

As for OS X, I think we have to go all out. I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part.

And we're just the guys to do it.

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We are indeed just the guys to do it. "I have a cunning plan." I remember that other moment well. My fairly good memory means I don't have to work too hard for new material. There'll be a whole new audience for whom it is fresh - or as stale as it ever was. I feel a song coming...v