I don't really have the money, but I'm fast getting to the point where I really, really need to get a new Mac. I'm starting to run into trouble not running CS4. Plus I have some other potential work, using certain Adobe applications that don't run on my machine. Why? Because it's a Power PC. I've had the radiator since 2005, and I am starting to feel the pinch.

This seems to always happen to me on what's probably the cusp of a new hardware release. Whenever I buy a new Mac, if I had just waited another month, the one I bought would have been shitcanned, and I could have either gotten it cheaper from a reseller, or could have waited for the next generation.

This time, it's probably going to be the same thing, who knows. Isn't March usually a release date? They might be concentrating on the iPad, though, to the exclusion of all else.

Regardless, I do need a new computer. I've needed one since last year. Now I'm approaching a situation where I could be losing out on work by not having it.

I just can't get the numbers to work just yet. These bad boys are expensive. I used to be able to say, oh well, a new computer, I'll just budget five grand...

Now, I'm lucky if I can scrape together FOUR. So I need the best bang for the buck.

The Mac Mini is only a grand, but I think I'd kill myself. Plus no SATA (can get around that with gigabit and the Radiator as the server). I think it can drive my monitor with an adaptor, but I don't like the sound of "shared with main memory"... considering the main memory maxes out at four GB. So that's out.

The iMac is a sweet machine, but I don't need the all-in-one, I have a monitor. And to trick it out with a Nehalem and enough memory for my needs, it's right up in Mac Pro range anyway.

Nehalem, 8GB, Magic Mouse, Applecare = $2968


I figure I need a Mac Pro. Because I'm a Mac Pro. I haven't found the Mac that gives me enough power. The radiator is slow and irritating now. Holy crap, sometimes the lag in Safari is so bad, the typing slows down to one character per 2 seconds, and a click on the menubar doesn't fire the menu for 20 seconds I have so much shit going on.

I'm ready for speed and power. It's just about what I can afford.

Let's start with my dream computer, which I know I CAN'T afford... I'm on the Apple site now, let me work it out... 8-core, 16GB RAM, Magic Mouse, AppleCare... grand total = $4068 without tax. That's pretty much over my budget right there. Er, except I also need another $900 to upgrade to CS4. Crap.


Let's try this: 8-core (2x2.26GHz), with 8GB (4x2GB, leaving 4 open slots), Magic Mouse, AppleCare. Grand total = $3668 before tax. Still puts me over with CS4.

Now we move to the quad cores...
Quad-core 2.66GHz, 8GB RAM (4x2GB), Magic Mouse, AppleCare. Grand total = $3018 before tax. Even that with tax doesn't let me spend the $900 on CS4 right away. But it's closer. I just don't like the idea of half the processing power, for a savings of only $668.

Now, for shits and giggles, let's price out a fully loaded 8-core:

8-core (2x2.93GHz), 32GB RAM (8x4GB), 4 1TB drives, ATI Radeon HD 4870, Magic Mouse, Applecare. Grand Total = $10,768. Holy crap. You could get three Mac Pros for that.

Tough decision. Since I can't get CS4 until I get more money anyway, I might as well spend the money on more power. The front runner right now is the 8-core option. Worry about more memory down the road. Right now Crucial doesn't really offer a better deal than Apple when it comes to the 4GB chips.

I checked the resellers, all about the same. Looked at refurbs, all kinds of options.

What do you think, brother Rico?

I upgraded the office to the Quad Core 2.66 machines. I think you should look at the Quad-Core as your stop gap to get you through this business environment. They are powerful machines. Way more powerful than the Radiator. I would say get the Mac Mini but there will be problems with Snow Leopard comunicating with the older Server version you are running. You would need to upgrade that as well. For the Radiator you would have to find X.5 Leopard version to run on PowerPC.

I didn't use Crucial for the RAM this time. I went with OWC purely along price. You can get the full 16GB from them for [URL=https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/85MP3S4M16GK/]$613[/URL] (I can not get this link to work) . You can also sell them the RAM that comes in the Mac Pro back to them. Not sure how much they will give you but it would help offset the cost so you would have more money to get CS4. OWC is very reliable.

I just checked our old friends Provantage. They have the Quad-Core 2.66Ghz for $2300 and the Dual Quad-Core 2.26Ghz for $3050. You have to log in to see the lower prices. The Dual Quad-Core comes with the 6X1GB RAM configuration.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RicoX,

Have you taken a good look at eBay or Craig's List for used machines?

Rico, I'm wondering if the "https" is fooling the software.

Also, thalo, what have you got to sell? Can you get anything for you Radiator? Have any extra stuff sitting around I might be interested in? I guess it would all add up.

BN I am not sure what it is but if you copy and paste the link it works. Something is definitely messing the software up. The OWC link is some sort of semi-secure link.

quote:

https://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other World Computing/85MP3S4M16GK

Yeah, usually secure links "https" don't work here.

It's funny, in Provantage they don't mention anywhere in the description that the $3048 computer is the DUAL. I assume it is because of the clock speed and part #, but there's room for a scam there.

At Amazon, I can save significantly on AppleCare. Just noticed that (unless they scam on shipping)...

a 16GB set (4 4GB chips) from OWC is $612. That would leave 4 slots open for another 16GB set down the road (but apparently it would HAVE to be OWC brand, you can't mix and match types--I wonder why?).

You can't get that configuration from Apple. But their 32GB set is $3700. Whereas the same amount of RAM from OWC would be $1224. That's a good savings.

I don't know brother, I think the RADIATOR has been the stopgap machine. I guess what it is, is that I don't feel comfortable bidding on some of these jobs that I know I need CS4 for (before I've even tried it or loaded it because I can't). But if I GET those jobs, the up-front money would allow me to afford the computer. It's a catch-22. I just don't want to get caught. Get the job, then the client sends me something while I'm waiting for the new machine (or the first check) and says, hey, what do you think of this? And I can't open it.

So the strategy is, get the best bang for the buck I can now, just so I can bid out some of this work... THEN see if I get the jobs, THEN maybe use the up-front money to finish my configuration with a full load of RAM or something and then go go go.

It's the damn $900 of the CS4 upgrade that's killing me now. That upgrade price couldn't be any more inconvenient. All I can think of now, is do the trial, and hope I can afford the serial number in time (within 30 days) so the client doesn't find out I'm using trial software to start their job.

Oh, the other one that kills me is friggin' COLD FUSION ENTERPRISE. A $7500 program. There are sweet corporate jobs out there I could get, if I could afford that software. The standard single-server version is $1200. There's also a trial.

The other thing I have to take into account is the 3-D rendering software I use (primarily Strata). It's not that big a part of my work, but it is an important SMALL part. When I need it, I'm glad it's there. Runs pretty darn good on the G5, er, if I'm not doing anything else. Maybe more power would let me render and at least email or something.

I do hate the idea of throwing that 6GB of Apple memory away, or trying to sell it for pennies, or having to rebate it.

I have read other people who've said that the quad core is fine, don't worry about the 8-core, but apparently they all wrote that stuff BEFORE CS4, which supposedly wails now in 8-core. That's the tempting part of that.

The other thing I know I'll want to take advantage of, is the 64-bit FINDER. The Finder is where all my troubles and woes are. I need that rewritten Finder. I need quick navigation of huge directories with lots of previews. Right now my Finder is sometimes useless to me, and that has to stop. And Bridge is no better. It's slow to load too.

What I'm psyched about, is that I am going to be able to fit all my big HDs in the new Mac Pro at once. PLUS get a few cheap 1TB drives to populate the Firmtek enclosure on the Radiator which will be my new server. I'll effectively double my storage capacity AGAIN.

I don't know if I've got the right adaptors and such to run the OLD 23" Graphite Cinema Display off the Radiator's monstrous video card. I've got a "DVI to ADC" adapter, I think that'll do it, but I forget.

You know what I keep thinking about? Saying goodbye to Poor Seabiscuit. Once I do that, the legacy is gone forever. I'll have no computer that can boot OS 9. Of course I don't use the legacy much anymore, but once in a while I definitely go in there and reminisce. I'm as attached to that computer as I was to my old Mac Plus. What a trooper it's been. It's access door is a broken mess (I have to use the lock to close it like you told me), but otherwise it still runs damn good. And it runs all day and night. It gets way better reviews than the Radiator, which gave me endless problems. The Radiator has had moments of greatness, but it's probably the least favorite Mac I've ever had. Despite having the most power.

It's always been glitchy. It STILL, every once in a while will just freeze up, and run its fans at full-force. Performance still degrades with use. If I'm on the computer all day, and forget to restart it a couple of times, it starts crawling. Just all kinds of irritating little bogus eccentricities.

In the Spec sheet listed by Provantage is does say for Processors: 2 x Intel Xeon Quad-core 2.26GHz. So I don't think it is a scam. That is a good price savings. The OWC RAM has worked in four machines for us in the office with no problems. You can not beat the prices.

I wish you had someone working in education or a student. You could get CS4 Premium for less than half the upgrade price. Of course you are not supposed to use it commercially though. Provantage has the Master Collection Upgrade for $857.49.

Yeah, I wish I was still faculty somewhere. I got some great discounts that way. I think the hardware discounts are nothing much nowadays, though. It ain't like the old days where that education discount meant something.

I do need the Master Collection upgrade. That's what I have with CS3. $857.49 saves me about $40, nice.

I checked the Adobe Education pricing. The only real deal is for College students on CS4 Premium. Goes for about $399. The other discounts are the same as your Master Collection upgrade price.

I think you could get along with the 6GB in the Dual Quad-Core machine in the short run. The thing with the Dual Quad-Core machines is the 8 ram slots. The single Quad Core only has 4 slots.

Do those prices keep it within your budget? It is all timing. You are right the current Mac Pros were released March 2009. The previous ones were released March 2008. You would have to hold out for another month or more.

I know this much CS4 runs on PowerPC. But some of the Master Collection apps don't right. You could do the Mac Mini just to run those apps. Then there is also Adobe which at some point is going to release CS5 too. It is always a rock between a hard place.

I would recommend a MBP.
The only downside is, it can't power your 30 incher. :-(
So, no MBP.

quote:

I know this much CS4 runs on PowerPC. But some of the Master Collection apps don't right. You could do the Mac Mini just to run those apps. Then there is also Adobe which at some point is going to release CS5 too. It is always a rock between a hard place.

Oh, I was just going by the System Requirements, which don't even MENTION running on a PowerPC. The first thing on the list is an Intel-based Mac. But if Flash, InDesign, Photoshop and Illustrator ran fine, that would be enough for now.

Brother Smithz, I believe the MBP can drive a 30" monitor using the mini DisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI adapter. Except with that, AppleCare, the 7200rpm drive, and 8GB, with the 17", you're still in the price range of the Mac Pro. Around $3500. It is something to think about. But the processor is a Core 2 Duo, not a Nehalem.

The front runner is the base config. 8-core at this point. Once you start with the BTO options, it takes longer to ship. And I might need it fast. RAM, I can add later with OWC. The only thing that might keep me from getting the base configuration, is that I might want to choose the ATI 4870 card over the Nvidia GeForce GT 120. If you get the Radeon card from Apple, it's only another $200. If you get it from amazon, it's $349.

I am running CS4 on my Dual 2Ghz G5 machine. You have a ton of RAM so I see no problem running those apps on the Radiator.

I had one user running CS4 on a MDD G4 at one point with 2GB of RAM for over a year.

I say pop for the Master Collection to get you past the next Mac Pro upgrades which have to be right around the corner.

In these Barefeats tests the Radeon 4870 scores as well as the high end cards that cost way more.

I might do that. Just start with the Master Collection. But I'm getting to the point where I can't wait for a new computer. I've about had it with the radiator. I wish there was a way to know if the Mac Pros are going to get speedbumped or new processors next month... or if they'll go another year while Apple concentrates on the iPad.

I think the code in CS4 is much cleaner than previous versions. Especially in the apps you need. They have continually updated them. CS3 was released in March 2007.

Premiere and Soundbooth both need Intel CPU's. I think CS5 is going to be Intel only. If CS4 can get you the jobs you need to get the funds for a new machine the Radiator will handle Indesign Photoshop and Illustrator CS4.

It is hard to say when new machines will be released but the past several years they have been launching them in ~12 month cycles. They may release new Mac Pro before the official launch of the iPad who knows.

I don't think you should hold off on getting CS4 especially if it is keeping you from getting work.

Here is [URL=http://guides.macrumors.com/Mac_Pro_Buyer's_Guide]MacRumors Buyers Guide[/URL] (This link will not work either) which says Don't Buy. Holy craptacular they are saying new 6 core CPU's are due. With 50% speed bumps across the board.

Shoot get CS4 now to tide you over.

quote:

Premiere and Soundbooth both need Intel CPU's. I think CS5 is going to be Intel only. If CS4 can get you the jobs you need to get the funds for a new machine the Radiator will handle Indesign Photoshop and Illustrator CS4.

How about Flash? That's key. Again, the System requirements on the Adobe site itself say you need an Intel Mac to run CS4 AT ALL.

Flash CS4 Professional works on G5 systems.

The only apps in the Master Collection that require Intel CPU's is Premiere and Soundbooth.

We have been using CS4 in the office since it came out on a variety of machines from ancient G4 to G5 machines. We are now on new Mac Pro machines. The Radiator with all the RAM you have will handle CS4 fine.

From what Rico is saying, it sounds like you may be able to wait a while before you are forced to upgrade.

Yeah, I mean in CS3, Premiere and Soundbooth don't work either. Now I think Adobe is being deliberately misleading in their System requirements. I'm not making it up. I read these things. That panicked me.

So now I have a little breathing room. I can actually GET some of these jobs first, and then I'll be in a better position to buy the new hardware I want.

That thing in rumors (or was it Ars) about the complaints of the Nehalem running hot and eating power, and killing performance when processing audio (like iTunes) worries me. Actually I suspected a similar problem with the G5, remember when I was trying to figure out why both my processors burnt out? Remember when I was becoming obsessed with the various heat sensors?

I think there may be something fundamental going on there. Something Apple is hiding from us. I hope I'm wrong, I just have ceased to really trust them too far.

Take for instance the whole redesign of the radiator-case interior. It's all ABOUT heat. And lookit those giant ass wedding cake heat sinks on the RAM! Holy fuck! OK, I understand that when power increases, so does heat. And I know OS X is a p-i-g pig... I think the whole move toward a multi-core processing scheme is about buying time.

What do I mean by that? Well, figure that with these radiators, the clock is ticking on burning out those processors. Eventually the heat gets to be too much for 'em. Apple might have been OK with letting the G5 burn out after a year, because they assumed people would just get new Macs when the warranty was up. If a couple got AppleCare, so be it, they'd just replace a few processors. But I'm guessing the useful life of these super-computer desktop computers is not all it is cracked up to be.

I wonder if the architecture is an engineering solution to this pervasive heat problem. Spread it out amongst quad and hex processors, to distribute the heat so no one board gets mad hot enough to bring down the system. I wonder if Macs are always redlining it because of the stupid OS. Are they ALWAYS on fire, like that flaming commuter train in "War of the Worlds?"

This is one of the reasons for my next computer I wouldn't CONSIDER NOT getting AppleCare. No way I'm going through what I went through with this G5 again. I'll get that coverage and keep it as long as I can. And perhaps I will simply SELL the computer when the AppleCare coverage is up.

What I want, in the new machine, whatever I decide to get, is RAM. RAM and more RAM. I'm sick to death of fighting the Finder. If I have to max it out at 32Gigs, I'll do it. Even if I can't afford to do it all at once. I waste more time in that fucking Finder, waiting for shit to appear, almost than I do doing my actual work. It's maddening.

Sometimes I use the stupid COMMAND LINE for file management, that's how crazy it gets. And I am definitely not a command-line kinda guy.

Breathing room is good.

I just think buying a higher end MacPro is a waste of money. The price-difference between a moderate MacPro and a higher-end does not show up in a that great performance boost.

From my pov i can only say that performance on my MBP is all good, i can work with anything. And that with 2GB Ram only. Sure more RAM would be better and faster CPU, too. (i have 2,5 ghz C2D). But i doubt the advantage is so big. At work i'm using a MacPro 2,66 Xenon with 4GB RAM and it feels mostly the same as my MBP.

I can only think of your Radiator which was pretty expensive, maybe too expensive for the power you got.

And i'm really not sure that maxing out the RAM will speed up the finder. Are you sure about it? This sounds like brute force, but maybe it's a waste of money?

I really think maxing out the RAM is the ONLY thing that will speed up the Finder. I just think almost nobody maxes out their RAM because of the cost involved. The only guys I know who need that kind of power, usually, are real 3-D gearheads.

Extra RAM boosts Application power, and the Finder is nothing more than an Application. Remember in the legacy days how we used to be able to control the allocation of RAM to individual apps? Now the operating system does that. Though with a hog like Photoshop, we are able to set it manually. And if you ask me, there should be a similar thing for the Finder. Because traditionally (meaning traditionally in the OS X era), that's the one application that has constantly struggled.

But it only struggles in a very particular, pro-user kind of way. Most people DON'T clog up their directories with a bajillion items like I do. Nor do they need to scan through giant directories of assets to find a particular file. Seriously, when was the last time you opened a folder with more than 1,000 items? I do it routinely.

OK, five items? The Finder is fine. five THOUSAND? It crawls. Now X-men always used to say, well, simply don't do that! Which is the "doc, it hurts when I do this" argument. Who are they to tell me how I should work? The Mac OS is server-based now. It SHOULD be good at junk-drawer management. When you make it a dumb server, without too many app-like tasks, it's great. But when you ask it to be a server, PLUS a great app-running personal computer, it falls apart.

That's really the reason why these desktops have had to evolve to be pretty much supercomputers. Because the operating system is designed for one thing, but people NEED more than dumb file servers. They need a computer that runs big applications too.

You wonder why the whole world of mini-apps and widgets has taken off? That's by design. It's because an operating system like OS X simply works better when the applications are dumbed down. One note.

And I've said it before, but when you look at the BEST native OS X pro apps out there, they are all basically file-servery. Like Aperture.

Or iMovie. All about Finding and displaying data.

But when you have to actually create, make, draw, manipulate... it's kind of a different story. And so to do both, we need unbelievable power.

The question that begs answering, though, is why the legacy could appear to do both, with a modest fraction of the power... while OS X STILL struggles, with power up the wazoo.