Kerry had already been in Vietnam for a year on other ships before being given a swiftboat.

NOT ONE of the sailors who served with Kerry on his boat has complained that he “abandoned” them.

It takes a right-wing political campaign with no regard for truth to come up with something like that.

You should be comparing Kerry’s military record to those of George W and Dick Cheney, not the nonsense that the Rovettes have concocted.

You need to be more skeptical of the pronouncements from these people. Ed Gillespie, Republican chairman, has given a name to the loonie, whack-job protest groups who tried to demonstrate at and disrupt the Democratic Convention in Boston and now want to do the same in New York. He calls them “Democrats.” Don’t be just a parrot for these people. They’re not worth your allegiance.

I’m not even a Democrat. I’m a registered Independent. But I have taken a powerful dislike to these ruthless plutocrats.

Markle

Markle Markle Markle

Kerry is crying about one 527 group that has been asking Kerry to come clean for 30 years or more. The swift boat vets for truth did not just pop up during this Presidential campaign. They did step forward when Kerry at the DNC convention said I am reporting for duty and paraded a handful of Vietnam Vets.

Kerry volunteered to command a Swift boat. Kerry's command was for a one year tour of duty on the swift boat. There was a provision that if you receive three purple hearts you can request to be taken off combat duty. The military did not automatically take people off combat duty after three purple hearts you had to request transfer. For the first two purple hearts Kerry received he lost no time due to his injuries. Injuries that if they gave out purple hearts to WWII vets for such injuries the WWII vets would have come home with dozens and dozens of purple hearts each. When Kerry received his third purple heart Kerry took two days leave which afterward he filed his request to be transfered from his command of PFC 94 to non combat position after 3 and half months and only two days after receiving his third purlple heart for a wound that was caused by his own grenade. In other words Kerry abandoned his boat and left his crew behind.

You want to compare Kerry against Bush/Cheney's military service well out of the three Kerry is the one using his military record as a source for his competence to be commander and chief. What the Swift Boat Vets for Truth are saying is if you look at Kerry's record he is unfit for command. For me the fact alone that Kerry took on command of a swift boat as the officer of that boat and chose to leave his crew behind after only three and half months shows the type of loyalty Kerry had for his men. I had to go no further than Kerry's official website to see this fact.

Kerry has said that he can take what he learned serving in Vietnam and bring this to the White House. What did Kerry learn in Vietnam other than to cut and run. Only to villify those same men he served with when he came back state side. John Kerry's military career was self serving nothing more nothing less. Complete political ambition right down to the staged film footage of himself walking on the banks in Vietnam. Kerry asked and received an early discharge from his military service so he could run for a seat in the House of Representatives in his home state of Mass.

As for these ruthless plutocrats Kerry is crying about one 527 group. Scatching at the surface for a short time I have learned that Kerry's former campaign manager Jim Jordan whom Kerry replaced last October is head of an organization called the Thunder Road Group that coordinates the efforts of just about all the Democratic 527 groups so their adds don't overlap wasting advertising dollars. The advertising campaign against Bush which has been going on for over a year from these groups has spent over 100 million dollars. That is more than what the Bush/Cheney Campaign has spent.

Why are these 527 groups like MoveOn, Media fund, America Coming Together, America Votes who receive legal advice from DNC lawyers not exposed by the media. Instead the media attacks a group of decorated Vietnam Vets for voicing their first amendment right. When the talking head shows have one of the Swift boat Vets for Truth on you do not see another Vet on the show to contradict what the Swift Boat Vets for Truth have been saying. Instead when one of them does appear there is some DNC talking head like Jim Carvile who was not anywhere near a swift boat.

This Presidential campaign I have stated before is no longer about Democrat or Republican liberal or conservative left or right it is about what is rational and what is irrational. The DNC left rational behind over a year ago when they started pumping hundreds of millions of dollars of soft money into the before mentioned 527 groups. These groups have twisted what is reality into some irrational ferver that we will all see on the streets of NYC come next week.

I am a United States Citizen. I am registered to vote. My allegiance is with America. Nothing more nothing less.

Just a follow up.

Markle said:

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Kerry had already been in Vietnam for a year on other ships before being given a swiftboat.

NOT ONE of the sailors who served with Kerry on his boat has complained that he “abandoned” them.

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First Kerry was not in Vietnam for a year before becoming a Swift boat commander. He was aboard the USS Gridley which was never stationed in any port in Vietnam. Here is some commentary of people Kerry served with and under on the Gridley. The Gridley did spend time in port in Danang but Kerry was never given leave to go ashore. So Kerry's time on the Gridley never involved Kerry ever stepping ashore in Vietnam. Though in Kerry's book Tour of Duty Kerry makes these claims. This is detailed in Phil Carter's comment 5.

Here is Kerry's official website page on Kerry's military service timeline that I had linked earlier. From Kerry's official website it shows Kerry entered Vietnam on November 17,1968 and leaves in early April 1969. So Kerry was in Vietnam a total of about 5 months.

This last news item is an officer who now is stepping forward who did serve on the same boat in combat with Kerry who questions Kerry's claims the time they spent together.

Is this all part of some spin machine?

Who is doing the spinning?

2004 Republican Convention Agenda

Compiled by Markle

Monday

7:30: Welcome and Invocation
8:00: Prayer Breakfast
9:00: Bible Study Class
10:00: Bible Study Class
11:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Abolish Department of Education: Bible is oll ennyone needs to reed.
Noon: Prayer lunch
1:00: Bible Study Class
2:00: Address by member of Republican Mothers for Truth: "John Kerry Bit Off My Baby's Head."
2:30: Bible Study Class
3:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Bill of Rights declared an al Qaeda tool.
4:00: Bible Study Class
5:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Repeal 13th Amendment: Slavery is OK'd in the Bible and market forces should determine the issue in an Ownership Society.
6:00: Bible Study Class
7:00: Prayer Dinner
8:30: After-dinner entertainment: John Ashcroft sings "Let the Eagle Soar," backed by Karl Rove and the Rovettes.
9:00: Bible Study Class

Tuesday

8:00: Prayer breakfast
9:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Leaders of foreign nations shall apply for U.S. license before taking office.
10:00: Bible Study Class
11:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Modern medicine is based on secular humanism. Medicare reform will henceforth rely on leeches, bleedings, and exorcism of evil spirits.
11:30: Address by member of Swiftboat Veterans for Bushcheney: "John Kerry was never in Vietnam."
Noon: Prayer lunch
1:00: Bible Study Class
2:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Haliburton Corp. declared faith-based institution, eligible for federal grants.
3:00: Bible Study Class
4:00: Demonstration by group representing Republican "base": "We reject the fundamental tenets of science—AND WE VOTE!"
5:00: Bible Study Class
6:00: Address by Justice Clarence Thomas: "Separation of church and state: liberal plot to aid terrorists."
7:00: Prayer dinner
8:30: After-dinner entertainment: burning of witch.
9:00: Bible Study Class

Wednesday

7:00: Prayer breakfast
8:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Clear Skies Initiative allows more pollution, Healthy Forests plan allows more logging.
9:00: Bible Study Class
10:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Capital punishment for disobeying parents, as per Bible.
11:00: Bible Study Class
11:30: Platform Committee Proposal: Sending your job overseas: if it's good for business, it's good for you.
Noon: Prayer lunch
1:00: Bible Study Class
2:00: Platform Committee Proposal: "Whom God hath made rich, let all men defer to him and pay his taxes."
3:00: Bible Study Class
4:00: "Big Tent" debate: Ann Coulter vs. Rush Limbaugh: "John Kerry—Spawn of Satan or Terrorist Sympathizer?"
5:00: Campaign film: "Osama bin Laden: Liberal."
6:00: Bible Study Class
7:00: Prayer dinner
8:30: After-dinner entertainment: Dick Cheney demonstrates how he shotgunned 70 birds as they were released from cages in a canned hunt.
9:30: Bible Study Class

Thursday

7:00: Prayer breakfast
8:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Free market system creates patriotic duty of Americans to shut up and die if they can't afford prescription drugs.
9:00: Bible Study Class
10:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Capital punishment for adultery, as per Bible.
10:30: Address by member of Republican Historians for Truth: "John Kerry kidnapped the Lindbergh baby."
11:00: Bible Study Class
Noon: Prayer lunch
1:00: John Ashcroft proposal: Electronic voting machines will identify non-Republicans, who will be stripped of citizenship and required to register as enemy combatants.
2:00: Bible Study Class
3:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Application and approval procedure to be established for printing and reading books.
4:00: Bible Study Class
5:00: Platform Committee Proposal: Health insurance crisis solved: not needed—illness is will of God, not to be questioned.
6:00: Bible Study Class
7:00: Prayer dinner
8:30: After-dinner entertainment: Nomination of President Bushcheney.
9:30: Bushcheney acceptance: Promises to continue being a uniter, not a divider.
10:30: Mass singing of "Onward, Christian Soldiers"; music by Karl Rove and the Rovettes.
11:00: Benediction and adjournment
11:20: Private Republican National Committee report: "Newfangled voting machine software: our ace in the hole."
11:30: Bible Study Class

Please, remember, some of us are getting old and are due for bladder control problems.

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8:30: After-dinner entertainment: burning of witch.

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Holy CRAP that was good stuff.

Wow Markle that is right out of the DNC handbook on how to misrepresent the RNC.

Are you sure you are a registered "Independent"?

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2004 Republican Convention Agenda

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Hey, I'll take those who have a faith in a God over Lenin and Marx every time.

And I'll take reason and rational thought over ANY faith or ideaology that has at its core a need to control populations.

And I'll take reason and rational thought over ANY faith or ideaology that has at its core a need to control populations.

Hey, reason and rational thought are also used to control populations. It's clearly not just the method one uses. It's the intention.

And I'll take a bagel with cream cheese and salami.

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Hey, I'll take those who have a faith in a God over Lenin and Marx every time.

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I’m not sure that living under the thumb of the Taliban or in Iran under the Ayatollah vs. a communist dictatorship is all that clear-cut a choice.

And don’t forget the Christian (Catholic) theocracy of Europe in the Dark Ages. It was, in fact, their knowledge of history, of the religious tyrannies and religious wars of Europe, that made our founders determined to avoid the pitfalls of state religion.

The boot is just as heavy regardless of whether the wearer claims he’s acting on behalf of God.

Markle

I think you can judge any society by the way it treats its detractors and/or heretics.

Didn't the Christian (Catholic) theocracy of Europe in the Dark Ages lead Europe into the Renaissance?

I think you can judge any society by the way it treats its detractors and/or heretics.

I agree, brother thalo. It can also be judged by how the detractors and heretics treat (or are able to treat) society. In Germany they became Nazi leaders. In America they're famous directors!

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I’m not sure that living under the thumb of the Taliban or in Iran under the Ayatollah vs. a communist dictatorship is all that clear-cut a choice.

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Geez, I didn't say Allah. Even I'm not that dense.

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And don’t forget the Christian (Catholic) theocracy of Europe in the Dark Ages. It was, in fact, their knowledge of history, of the religious tyrannies and religious wars of Europe, that made our founders determined to avoid the pitfalls of state religion.

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I think that's largely a postmodern myth. While religion was at odds with what we consider modern notions of freedom, I've seen it convincingly argued that the Christian church was a catalyst for enlightened change and fore getting us to where we are now. There's a damn good reason there's such a strong correlation between peaceful, enlightened western democracies who have, and have had, Christianity at the core, and other places and religions in the world that remain backward to this day, smothered by religion, instead of set free by it. But I'll not pursue this line of reasoning further as it requires more time and thought then I'm willing to put into it right now.

The bigger question is, has the rest of the world simply caught up with the U.S. or are our NBA athletes spoiled and soft?

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Didn't the Christian (Catholic) theocracy of Europe in the Dark Ages lead Europe into the Renaissance?

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No. The Renaissance was against everything the Church stood for. It was, literally, the “re-birth” of learning, culture, art, humanism, etc., etc., after centuries of being stifled by the Church.


Markle

<< Geez, I didn't say Allah. Even I'm not that dense. >>

Allah is God to them. You didn’t specify you were only talking about Western religions. Theocracy is theocracy.

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And don’t forget the Christian (Catholic) theocracy of Europe in the Dark Ages. It was, in fact, their knowledge of history, of the religious tyrannies and religious wars of Europe, that made our founders determined to avoid the pitfalls of state religion.
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<< I think that's largely a postmodern myth. While religion was at odds with what we consider modern notions of freedom, I've seen it convincingly argued that the Christian church was a catalyst for enlightened change and fore getting us to where we are now. >>

What I said is not a myth. Our founders were guided by Enlightenment philosophy and the fact that history that was more recent to them than to us told them the dangers of theocracy and established religions.

After the Protestant Reformation, not all churches were as heavy-handed as the all-encompassing Catholic Church establishment had been. But historical reality tells us the dangers.

I think it’s sad that we have to have these discussions about religion in a political context. It shows how the religious right has come to control the Republican party. I have life-long conservative, Republican friends (some Jewish, but not all) who are very uncomfortable with the Onward-Christian-Soldiers direction their party has taken. There was a time when conservatism was secular. I’m nostalgic for Barry Goldwater, who seemed like such a right-wing kook in the early 1960’s. But in the last years of his life he was steadfastly critical of the theocratic impulses rising in the party. I remember him once saying, “Jerry Falwell can go to hell.” There was a MAN.

Anyone who doesn’t see the theocratic impulses in today’s Republican party isn’t paying attention. Conservatism, as Goldwater showed us, does NOT have to come with all this religious baggage. And we should be wary of politicians who are soft on the separation of church and state, even if we might agree with them on other things. History tells us the danger is just too big.

Markle

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No. The Renaissance was against everything the Church stood for. It was, literally, the “re-birth” of learning, culture, art, humanism, etc., etc., after centuries of being stifled by the Church.

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Is this what they are teaching you in California's educational system?

The unifying factor of Europe by the church lead to the "re-birth".

This is simple to see.

Speaking of educational systems, here is the perfect example of ours.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"

Ah, the age of enlightenment is upon us.

In a world where he who controls the vocabulary, controls the thing, to me it's all about taking SYMBOLIC POSESSION.

Politicians make alignments, in a very postmodern way, with symbols and facile, knee-jerk ideals, and as long as there's association, there's perception. It's classic marketeering. The guy who can take symbolic possession of Jesus, will take the Christian vote. The guy who can take symbolic possession of the idea of "commander in chief" will get the war-worry vote. The guy who takes symbolic possession of the "economy" will get the vote of those who are most worried about that.

Then, guys will try to bestow unwanted ideabytes on the other guy. More vocabulary... just label him this or that, and if it sticks, if it can stimulate some kind of vague emotional reaction, you get the points. And it's just SO easy to get stuff to stick these days. I think because we BEG to be liberated from reality, to be excused from doing te WORK of rational thought, of being actually intellectually involved. We are all being led by the nose to make facile, snap judgments... being encouraged to turn off our brains and be satisfied with Bush = Dope or Kerry = Hero; or Bush = Godfearing and Kerry = Tax-raiser.

The reality is, Bush = Politician, and Kerry = Politician, and Us = Rubes. The very vagueness of the "values" that either candidate is trying to take symbolic possession of, should be our warning flag.