2003 MTV Video Music Awards.

No comment. Oh hell, yes I will, but first I’ll let this discussion that I found set the tone.

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It's socially acceptable to be a lesbian because girl on girl is hot, while guy on guy is not. This wasn't an endorsement of lesbianism, it was an endorsement of 'putting on a show for the boys'. And God bless them.

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I thought you would have started this thread in Hardware Talk.

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According to the rules of this forum, topics on gay guys get posted in Hardware Talk, and topics on gay girls get posted in Warm Moist Software Talk.



Markle

Okay, I can see with all your tongue-in-cheek comments that yuze guys are just trying to get a rise out of me, so to speak. Your witty comments haven't disappointed.

I'm sure you're all wondering why I posted this topic. Surely it wasn't just to use the line "Lez is more". Well, it was that, but I'm also waiting for a world-class segue from brother thalo. I wanted to give him a challenge. I want to see if he's up to it, so to speak. And I'm not looking for the usual "two girls kissing is candy for the eyes just like...". No. I'm looking for something truly worthy of the Master.

Although Madonna and Britney kissing is quite appealing, I think the more interesting one would be Brad making out with thalo. Or with Steve Jobs

They had the perfect opportunity to do a 3 way kiss, tongues a flappin' and they missed it. Next year I guess.

But I find all 3 women each to be thoroughly unattractive except under the most carefully crafted lighting and makeup conditions.

But then this gentlemen prefers ladies of asian persuasion, so don't let me rain on anyone's parade.

[This message was edited by the mighty johnq on Mon September 01 2003 at 02:30 PM.]

Those kissin' chix are like the iApps--they look gorgeous in an overblown way, they excite us by playing nice together, and they distract us for a moment from the fact that, just like OS X, the DigiPop world they play in takes a medium with limitless potential and sucks the soul out of it by substituting crap-settling and sensory superabundance for anything of substance.

How was that?

Ow, very good, I kept looking over at the screen name going "9point5man? Not thalo?"

LOL brother 95!

Yeah, well, despite being Mr. Midlife crisis, and finding all those women rather sexy, including the one that's roughly my age... I kinda got douche chills from the kiss. It called up various old horror movies I've seen, with Madonna playing the role of the "youth vampire." I expected some strange blue arc to come out of Britney and Christina as they twirled tongues together.

Now, as sexy as madonna is. She's of late been displaying an almost otherworldy NEEDINESS. I can't bear to watch an interview with her and Guy. She's always at him for ego reinforcement. I wouldn't be surprised to read in the paper that he's given himself some kind of self-inflicted deafness, like poking sewing needles in his ears.

That all being said, now to the seque. Madonna is the legacy. Those little girls both owe her their careers. Without a material girl, there wouldn't be an either of them. A sexual freedom pioneer. So why the douche chills at the kiss? Because the torch has ALREADY been passed and taken up by the firmer and tighter. Because if you add the ages of the two young people, they probably equal Madonna's age. Because it was a shark-jumping moment, and I didn't really want to believe Madonna was done.

The same way I don't want to believe OS 9 is done. The problem there, though, is that OS X dropped the torch. It didn't take the best of the legacy. If sexual self-expression was the coin of the realm, both Britney and Christina kind of built their castles with it; but the moat was dug and the foundations built by Madonna.

The GUI was the best legacy of OS 9. And it continues to outclass the upstart new GUI. Which, in my opinion, is both trying too hard, and not trying hard enough. It didn't learn. Didn't take the best of the old and run with it. It heard "oops I did it again" and built its whole style around making mistakes. It became an eye-roller, and relies more on eye candy than talent or conception.

In that way, it kinda IS like a pop diva. The eye candy, trappings, and so forth are more important than talent. The show more important than the music. The spectacle and ticket sales more important than the creative passion.

Anyway, so while the legacy tries to suck the last few years of life out of the young successor, that whole jag seems doomed. Because even though the legacy is BETTER, Apple is banking on teeny boppers going for the new blood. Seeing the better operating system as over the hill. Its very superiority and place in history becoming an object of scorn. Too bad. What needs to happen is that the young'un should be soul sucking from the legacy, to bring it to new heights.

But the legacy living off the thing that was supposedly inspired by it is kind of tragic on the Shakespearean order. Because the brilliance is gone. The next generation has gotten dumbed down. All the inheritor has is youth and beauty (eye candy). Which unfortunately is fleeting. You watch how old OS X grows, and how fast it gets there. One dot-number revision already shows us how people can't wait to give up most of aqua stripes in favor of brushed aluminum. OS X will have to reinvent itself like that constantly if it wants to be a pop diva like madonna. Madonna knows how short attention spans are, and how to play the public. I can squirm at that youth vampire kiss, but I must confess she played it brilliantly. Maybe, though needy, she's way smarter than I think. Everyone's suddenly talking about a middle aged woman in the same breath with pop icons half her age.

Nobody's talking about her new songs as much as they're talking about her BEHAVIOR though. Maybe like pop divas, without OS X's kooky behavior, we'd have nothing to talk about. We'd be too busy working. Maybe we are so fickle that a little destabilization is all we need to throw in behind something. So why is OS X throwing me all KINDS of destabilization, and I refuse to adopt? Because a computer operating system isn't a pop diva. Hate to break the news. I tried, but the analogy isn't working. Pop is passive entertainment. OSs are tools. I could put on a teddy and sing "Like a Virgin" but I ain't gonna be madonna. Being able to buy that song for 99¢ is not why I own a Mac. I want my Mac to be my own personal creative tool. And while everyone else is polishing their tools looking at pop divas kiss, I say "so what?" I want more. I don't want flash in the pan. I want masterpiece. I don't want fleeting and fickle, I want amazing and hardworking and not foolish or stupid. I don't want timely, I want timeless.

Gee, I don’t know who to give the prize to; brother 9.5 for brevity or brother thalo for depth. Let’s call it a tie so everyone can go home happy.

I didn’t catch the shark-jumping moment that you did, thalo. Interesting. I’ve always looked at Madonna as someone who is extremely talented and has lived up to her commercial potential (no small thing indeed) but did not live up to her artistic potential. She seemed trapped in her own self-made makeover world where the shock value becomes boring and predictable…just like OS X’s eye candy and special effects.

I think “true art” is something that definitely thumbs its nose at the world even if the intent sometimes is no more than to get a rise out of us. But in my own little world of make believe, particularly these days, and in this culture, I look at the true artists as those who are willing to thumb their noses at present art and artists themselves, and not just the easy targets of mom and pop conservative (small “c”) who might be freaked out by seeing two girls kissing on MTV. That kind of display is so easy it’s almost laughable. That’s simply turning up the volume on whatever nonsense is already in existence. It’s hardly original, pioneering or worthy of praise (other than for having some PR savvy).

One of the great moments in MTV history was, when after years of visually superabundant videos with cuts so quick and numerous it could induce nausea, the Police did their black and white “Every Breath You Take” video. That’s what I call true pioneering. OS X is just another superficial publicity stunt. Instead of two girls kissing we have one interface that sucks. If OS X were on that MTV stage it would have pulled out a strap-on and gotten in on the action. It would have been right at home.

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One of the great moments in MTV history was, when after years of visually superabundant videos with cuts so quick and numerous it could induce nausea, the Police did their black and white “Every Breath You Take” video. That’s what I call true pioneering.

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That's how I feel about the White Stripes. OK, they have the frenetic, quick-cut thing going on, but I love the minimalism. I like that it's a two person band, and the vids are simple, black white and red.

We are all pretty much certain that the SECOND the Mac OS rediscovers minimalism, that we're all going to love it. It's really such a simple solution: crap-cutting. When that OS is pared down (or pare-able down) to its bare essentials, with all that G5 power, it's going to rule.

Less is More is exactly what's needed now. I mean, it's always been clear to me, but it's getting to the point where even your friendly neighborhood master baiter would forgive SO much if they just got that one thing. I'd honestly be able to crap-settle more, I'd be willing to stick it out and throw in behind X if just that one philosophical issue was addressed.

'Sides, I think Apple could look at it this way: an eye-candy FREE interface is going to be EASIER to produce. And Apple could charge MORE for a pro-capable OS, and make more money. When you don't have to plug your ears against the bells and whistles, I think you can concentrate on more important stuff, like getting the OS to actually work.

I'll tell you where I'm stymied. HOW to get Apple to forego eye candy in favor of lean and mean. How to convince them that all the bullshit is like pro kryptonite. Prosbane. What's it gonna take? Digikids and X-Men getting tired of visual superabundance? I wonder if that'll ever happen.

Like, how much JACKASS can you watch before you get tired of it? Aren't there always going to be some slabs of the user base who will always groove on the eye candy? There's the rub. How to keep them happy, while also realizing that the Mac Faithful operate on a different plane. I think it's wrong to MAKE them swallow the dumbed down nonsense. But on the other hand, depriving dumb people of it, if they truly enjoy it and don't CARE about whether the software works well or not, may not be fair either.

I think it'll end up being about configuring the interface. Themes, skins, whatever. It'll be about being able to choose super-rendered icons, or simple monochrome iconic ones. Goofy widgets, or simple graphical ones. Font selection. Placement of functionality. Adding logic and meaning to graphical elements.

Right now, OS X is like the madonna kiss, or an Anna Nicole Smith trainwreck. We're gawking when we should be working. Twiddling when stuff should make so much friggin' common SENSE that we wouldn't have to twiddle. Channel surfing instead of planting it on something good.

I still find OS X profoundly MANIPULATIVE. I can feel myself being yanked every second. I hate being PLAYED. I don't like things that reek of trying to put one over on somebody.

I don't want us to be satisfied with spinning gears or spinning cubes. I think we're worth more. Worthy of more and better.

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Wow, all this philosophising over something that was nothing more than a show biz stunt.

Y'know, I have NEVER found Madonna the least bit sexy. She was all pose and artiface and calculation. She isn't even really that pretty, and I could never get out of my mind those early nude pictures of her that showed how hairy she is. I always felt that I would never even want to be in the same room with her without having a haz-mat suit on. And "sexual pioneer"??? Give me a break, she was years too late for that.

Am I the only one who found "Every Breathe You Take" to be a creepy stalker song?

Markle

I have to agree with you, Markle. I never found Madonna to be sexy either. It's difficult to say exactly what talent she does have. She's not much of an actress, and for someone who supposedly makes her living as a professional singer she has a tinny singing voice and an unmusical way with a song. I remember an interview where Meryl Streep was puzzling about why Madonna was chosen for the role of "Evita" over her. I don't think there is any question of who is the better actress between the two, but Meryl made the comment that she can sing much better than Madonna. Meryl is not a professional singer, but it doesn't take a professional singer to out-do Madonna in song.

Madonna's singing is definitely lower rung. She doesn't have enough singing talent to make it through the first round or so of the TV show "American Idol." She has nothing that can match the talent of that show's later contestants--including the losing ones. Can't touch them. Just doesn't have the voice nor the musical acuity. Maybe her only real talent is for self-promotion, maybe. More often than not, in these circumstances, there is a person in back of the on-stage personality calling those shots.

"Madonna" is a calculated and invented persona with no talent substance behind it. As the person that represents it ages the persona becomes more and more creepy to behold. This trying to suck youth out of Britney in a lip lock is truly repugnant and makes one's skin crawl. Well, at least we don't need to worry about Madonna sucking out and gaining any talent. The empty and famous meets the empty and famous. Looking at the talent of each of them I guess there was nothing else to do but try having them kiss each other in public. Maybe that will do something.

I found Madonna a sexy pop culture chimera until she became a gaping black hole of need. And after her husband made the huge honkin' error of remaking a classic like "Swept Away" in which she--gotta say it--stunk up the joint almost as much as OS X.

For singing, I think Madonna has more talent than Britney, and Christina wipes the floor with the pair of them as far as having a voice I find pleasing. But none of them make records that I'd particularly go out and buy. Not like Liz Phair. Sigh.

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"Madonna" is a calculated and invented persona with no talent substance behind it.

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Except an enormous talent for calculation and persona invention.

Sorry, false alarm. I meant "Liz is More".

The #1 Crap Settler said, and I quote:

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Although Madonna and Britney kissing is quite appealing, I think the more interesting one would be Brad making out with thalo.

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I would gladly lick the lint off of thalo's mouse balls if Apple were to less-is-more the interface.

The Mighty One said:

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But then this gentlemen prefers ladies of asian persuasion, so don't let me rain on anyone's parade.

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I share that same fetish…err, preference. But I don't get what some of you are saying about Madonna and Britney (except for one vital comment from Markle). I think they both are quite beautiful. One evokes (or did for a time) the classic Marilyn Monroe ideal of beauty and the other stirs hillbilly "I'd marry my own 13-year-old cousin" desires.

Markle said:

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I always felt that I would never even want to be in the same room with her without having a haz-mat suit on.

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Personally, I wouldn't put my mouth near anything that has been in contact with Dennis Rodman.

Brother thalo said:

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Apple is banking on teeny boppers going for the new blood. Seeing the better operating system as over the hill. Its very superiority and place in history becoming an object of scorn. Too bad.

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I agree. There is a certain mentality (postmodernism?) that thinks all that has come before is by definition inferior. They are the New Generation. They are the first to have the betterment of the world as their primary goal. They are the enlightened ones. Of course, the reality is that they are in the process of proving that if you don't learn from the past then you're bound to repeat the same mistakes. It's also the reason they'll probably never understand why they failed.

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You watch how old OS X grows, and how fast it gets there. One dot-number revision already shows us how people can't wait to give up most of aqua stripes in favor of brushed aluminum. OS X will have to reinvent itself like that constantly if it wants to be a pop diva like Madonna.

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I'd say that's a very astute point. OS X mirrors the current culture's obsession with image at the expense of what we might historically call substance. Frank Sinatra had plenty of image, but the substance was never in doubt and how often did we see him in nothing but a simple suit and tie? Without our fantasies, without our active male ability to constantly picture Britney naked, what the hell good is she? She's a mediocre singer at best. Take the eye candy out of OS X and what have you got left? Maybe there's more left than in Britney but there can be no doubt that OS X is also trying to survive on image way to much – to the point where substance suffers.

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How to convince them that all the bullshit is like pro kryptonite. Prosbane.

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That felt oh-so-close to another coined term. How 'bout "kraptonite"?

<< Personally, I wouldn't put my mouth near anything that has been in contact with Dennis Rodman. >>

Ugh. Yuck.

Has Carmen Electra been released from decontamination yet? Skin peel, disinfection, etc.?

That terrific picture of Liz Taylor in her prime can make us sad when we see her now. There are many great beauties who have been in the public eye long enough for us to see them age and deteriorate. I once read that aging is a bigger insult to human dignity than death. Sometimes the human condition just flat-out sucks.

Markle

I just want to pull Jewel's snaggletooth and us it to plug up that Letterman-esque gap in Madonna's grill.

This is why she is often photographed at angles. Admittedly she has no problem about the imperfection, admirable I suppose, or at least as stubborn as I would be.

Anyway, knowing that Madonna originally had a monobrow that resembled black caterpillars humping each other...no amount of tweezing and makeup can remove that image from my memory.

Oops there I go again...sorry.

Give me Qi Shu anyday....

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Jewel can snaggle her tooth at me any time she wants. She also has a bit of a hook nose, but somehow it all still works. And her skin is perfect.

Oh, well...back to real life.

Markle

P.S. And then there's Julianne Moore.....